make truth?

So what's really going on?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
DPMartin
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:11 am

make truth?

Post by DPMartin »

if someone lies and more people believe the lie more then don't believe the lie, does that make it the truth?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: make truth?

Post by Immanuel Can »

DPMartin wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:22 pm if someone lies and more people believe the lie more then don't believe the lie, does that make it the truth?
When 100% of the world believed the world was flat, was the world flat?
Impenitent
Posts: 4305
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: make truth?

Post by Impenitent »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:29 pm
DPMartin wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:22 pm if someone lies and more people believe the lie more then don't believe the lie, does that make it the truth?
When 100% of the world believed the world was flat, was the world flat?
to the believers it was

definitions change with perspectives

-Imp
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: make truth?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Impenitent wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:54 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:29 pm
DPMartin wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:22 pm if someone lies and more people believe the lie more then don't believe the lie, does that make it the truth?
When 100% of the world believed the world was flat, was the world flat?
to the believers it was
"To the believers..."? In other words, "No, it was not flat...people just imagined it was, and later found out they were wrong."
definitions change with perspectives
But that's not the question. The question is, "Do facts change with perspectives?"

And, of course, they don't.
Impenitent
Posts: 4305
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: make truth?

Post by Impenitent »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:14 pm
Impenitent wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:54 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:29 pm
When 100% of the world believed the world was flat, was the world flat?
to the believers it was
"To the believers..."? In other words, "No, it was not flat...people just imagined it was, and later found out they were wrong."

no, to the believers it was.
definitions change with perspectives
But that's not the question. The question is, "Do facts change with perspectives?"

And, of course, they don't.
which is nothing but your perspective...

-Imp
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: make truth?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Impenitent wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:35 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:14 pm
Impenitent wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:54 pm

to the believers it was
"To the believers..."? In other words, "No, it was not flat...people just imagined it was, and later found out they were wrong."

no, to the believers it was.
definitions change with perspectives
But that's not the question. The question is, "Do facts change with perspectives?"

And, of course, they don't.
which is nothing but your perspective...

-Imp
No, it's actually the truth. If somebody has a different "perspective," then the world stays a globe, no matter what they think.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: make truth?

Post by henry quirk »

Impenitent wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:35 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:14 pm
Impenitent wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:54 pm

to the believers it was
"To the believers..."? In other words, "No, it was not flat...people just imagined it was, and later found out they were wrong."

no, to the believers it was.
definitions change with perspectives
But that's not the question. The question is, "Do facts change with perspectives?"

And, of course, they don't.
which is nothing but your perspective...

-Imp
Is Sol just perspective?

Is combustion just perspective?

Is lava just perspective?

Specifically: are the three phenomena we call Sol, combustion, lava just perspective?

If so: by changin' my perspective can I alter those three?

I can certainly alter what I believe about the Sun, explosive oxidation, and molten rock, but -- no -- Sol, combustion, lava, not a one requires my perspective to exist, and not one is changed because, for example, today I think the Sun is too damn hot and tomorrow I think the Sun is just right.
Impenitent
Posts: 4305
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: make truth?

Post by Impenitent »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:50 pm
Impenitent wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:35 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:14 pm
"To the believers..."? In other words, "No, it was not flat...people just imagined it was, and later found out they were wrong."

no, to the believers it was.


But that's not the question. The question is, "Do facts change with perspectives?"

And, of course, they don't.
which is nothing but your perspective...

-Imp
No, it's actually the truth. If somebody has a different "perspective," then the world stays a globe, no matter what they think.
ah, you have "the truth"

nothing further to discuss

-Imp
Impenitent
Posts: 4305
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: make truth?

Post by Impenitent »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:55 pm
Impenitent wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:35 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:14 pm
"To the believers..."? In other words, "No, it was not flat...people just imagined it was, and later found out they were wrong."

no, to the believers it was.


But that's not the question. The question is, "Do facts change with perspectives?"

And, of course, they don't.
which is nothing but your perspective...

-Imp
Is Sol just perspective?

Is combustion just perspective?

Is lava just perspective?

Specifically: are the three phenomena we call Sol, combustion, lava just perspective?

If so: by changin' my perspective can I alter those three?

I can certainly alter what I believe about the Sun, explosive oxidation, and molten rock, but -- no -- Sol, combustion, lava, not a one requires my perspective to exist, and not one is changed because, for example, today I think the Sun is too damn hot and tomorrow I think the Sun is just right.
no, changing your perspective is only changing your perspective...

the thing in itself is beyond perception

-Imp
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: make truth?

Post by henry quirk »

Impenitent wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 7:50 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:55 pm
Impenitent wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:35 pm

which is nothing but your perspective...

-Imp
Is Sol just perspective?

Is combustion just perspective?

Is lava just perspective?

Specifically: are the three phenomena we call Sol, combustion, lava just perspective?

If so: by changin' my perspective can I alter those three?

I can certainly alter what I believe about the Sun, explosive oxidation, and molten rock, but -- no -- Sol, combustion, lava, not a one requires my perspective to exist, and not one is changed because, for example, today I think the Sun is too damn hot and tomorrow I think the Sun is just right.
no, changing your perspective is only changing your perspective...

*the thing in itself is beyond perception

-Imp
*Obviously this is not true. I stride out into the new lava field in bare feet. My senses quite clearly allow me to apprehend what's destroying my feet, legs, body...I can see it, hear it, feel it: molten rock is eradicatin' the substance of me...I'm friggin' dyin' cuz I was an idiot and thought walkin' 'round in lava was a keen thing to do.

I may not have access to all of the world (my eyes, nose, ears, skin, are finite) but the particular slice of the world I do apprehend is real, I can and should trust that apprehension...if I had, I wouldn't be charcoal right now.
Impenitent
Posts: 4305
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: make truth?

Post by Impenitent »

trusting your perception is fine... claiming your perception is more than your perception is an error

-Imp
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: make truth?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Impenitent wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 7:46 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:50 pm
Impenitent wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:35 pm

which is nothing but your perspective...

-Imp
No, it's actually the truth. If somebody has a different "perspective," then the world stays a globe, no matter what they think.
ah, you have "the truth"
You don't think so? :shock: You don't believe the world is a globe?
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: make truth?

Post by henry quirk »

Impenitent wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 8:22 pm trusting your perception is fine... claiming your perception is more than your perception is an error

-Imp
I'm a direct realist (with, mebbe, a touch of George Boree's quality realism for color).

The disintergratin' heat of the lava isn't in my head. No, it's conducted to me, apprehended by me. It's real and I am literally touchin' it, bein' burned up by it.

I'm not contructin' the world in my head from processed information; I'm directly apprehendin' it.

I perceive the lava directly, and quite painfully.

The error, then is the thing in itself is beyond perception.

As I say: I only access a slice of the world, much of it is, in effect, invisible to me, but that slice, what I apprehend, is real, I navigate it, touch it, enjoy it, am harmed by it, claim sustenance from it, defend parts of it...and all this navigatin', touchin', enjoyin', injury, sustainin', and defense occurs becuz I am in contact with the world, becuz I'm in the world.

Nuthin' is beyond perception, we simply lack the natural capacity to perceive it all.
Impenitent
Posts: 4305
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: make truth?

Post by Impenitent »

henry quirk wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 10:51 pm
Impenitent wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 8:22 pm trusting your perception is fine... claiming your perception is more than your perception is an error

-Imp
I'm a direct realist (with, mebbe, a touch of George Boree's quality realism for color).

The disintergratin' heat of the lava isn't in my head. No, it's conducted to me, apprehended by me. It's real and I am literally touchin' it, bein' burned up by it.

I'm not contructin' the world in my head from processed information; I'm directly apprehendin' it.

I perceive the lava directly, and quite painfully.

The error, then is the thing in itself is beyond perception.

As I say: I only access a slice of the world, much of it is, in effect, invisible to me, but that slice, what I apprehend, is real, I navigate it, touch it, enjoy it, am harmed by it, claim sustenance from it, defend parts of it...and all this navigatin', touchin', enjoyin', injury, sustainin', and defense occurs becuz I am in contact with the world, becuz I'm in the world.

Nuthin' is beyond perception, we simply lack the natural capacity to perceive it all.
evil demons be damned...

then nothing exists outside the immediate perception in the moment?

-Imp
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: make truth?

Post by RCSaunders »

Impenitent wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 7:50 pm the thing in itself is beyond perception

-Imp
This, "thing in itself," you say is, "beyond perception," how is it, if it cannot be perceived, that you know about it?

If this, "thing in itself, is not detected in any way, directly or indirectly by human perception, how did you become conscious of it. Is this some kind of mystic insight only you have by which you are aware of these, "things in themselves," or is it just your faith in Platonic forms or some other religious teaching?

Please explain how anyone can know these, "things in themselves," so we can put aside our mistaken notion that the world we actually see, hear, feel, smell, and taste, live and work in, and have all our experience in, is the real and only world.
Post Reply