Infinity is real

So what's really going on?

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bahman
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Re: Infinity is real

Post by bahman »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:42 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:16 pm To be honest I don't know for sure where the texture comes from. It is a topic that I am already thinking about. Texture maybe is due to information about the past and future that is held within space!?
Information is the texture.
I think so.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Infinity is real

Post by Terrapin Station »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:41 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:37 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:32 pm
Information maybe in a pure vacuum. I don't know another alternative.
And what definition of "information" are you using?
Formation of a substance.
So the substance that comprises space in your view is "formation of a substance"???
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bahman
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Re: Infinity is real

Post by bahman »

Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:02 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:41 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:37 pm

And what definition of "information" are you using?
Formation of a substance.
So the substance that comprises space in your view is "formation of a substance"???
Yes.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Infinity is real

Post by Terrapin Station »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:57 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:02 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:41 pm
Formation of a substance.
So the substance that comprises space in your view is "formation of a substance"???
Yes.
Isn't "formation" in "formation of a substance" a verb?
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bahman
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Re: Infinity is real

Post by bahman »

Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:04 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:57 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:02 pm

So the substance that comprises space in your view is "formation of a substance"???
Yes.
Isn't "formation" in "formation of a substance" a verb?
Sorry, I have to correct your sentence: "So the information (not substance) that comprises space in your view is "formation of a substance"???". The answer to this question is yes.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Infinity is real

Post by Terrapin Station »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:12 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:04 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:57 pm
Yes.
Isn't "formation" in "formation of a substance" a verb?
Sorry, I have to correct your sentence: "So the information (not substance) that comprises space in your view is "formation of a substance"???". The answer to this question is yes.
Okay, but then we have a problem.

Again, I said, "You're claiming that space exists and has properties. I'm asking you to specify what exists and has properties without just repeating the word 'space.'"

You suggested that the answer to this question would be "information."

So you're saying that "space" refers to something that's a verb--that is, an action on something, rather than referring to something that's itself a substance?

Otherwise you either need to suggest something else for what space is, or we need to revise the claim that information would be a verb/an action (namely, the formation of a substance).
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bahman
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Re: Infinity is real

Post by bahman »

Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:25 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:12 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:04 pm

Isn't "formation" in "formation of a substance" a verb?
Sorry, I have to correct your sentence: "So the information (not substance) that comprises space in your view is "formation of a substance"???". The answer to this question is yes.
Okay, but then we have a problem.

Again, I said, "You're claiming that space exists and has properties. I'm asking you to specify what exists and has properties without just repeating the word 'space.'"

You suggested that the answer to this question would be "information."

So you're saying that "space" refers to something that's a verb--that is, an action on something, rather than referring to something that's itself a substance?

Otherwise you either need to suggest something else for what space is, or we need to revise the claim that information would be a verb/an action (namely, the formation of a substance).
I am saying that space has texture. It is not just empty volume. What is the texture? The information that exists as a form of a substance. What is information? Formation of a substance. Simply what is there space, that has texture, has a form.
Age
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Re: Infinity is real

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:27 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:35 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:09 am
No, in relation to the fact that for proving that the whole is infinite I need to assume otherwise and show that this leads to a problem, the existence of the boundary.
All sounds very unnecessary and unnecessarily complex.

But each to their own.
All are necessary and simple.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:35 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:09 am
I am not writing in riddles.
Is this an irrefutable absolute truth, or just from your perspective only?
It is the absolute truth.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:35 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:09 am
Because I read that you think that the universe is infinite.
LOL So, you read that I 'think' something, but then you tell me that I 'believe' something.

These are two VERY different things.
I know. I should have said think instead of believe in the first place.
Yes this is Correct, True, and Right, and therefore thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:27 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:14 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:09 am
It is untrue? Then why you say below that you have proof for it.
What I have proof for has absolutely NO bearing on what I believe or not.

But I do LOOK AT and SEE the 'believe' word VERY DIFFERENTLY than you adult human beings do, in the days of when this was written.
Ok.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:14 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:09 am
What is your proof?
There is NO 'my' proof.

What ACTUALLY exists is thee proof.

If 'you', human beings agree with and accept that EVERY 'thing' was caused by some 'thing', then that is thee ACTUAL proof thee Universe is 'eternal', and, if 'you', human beings agree with and accept that thee Universe can NOT be bounded, then that is thee ACTUAL proof thee Universe is 'infinite'.

Now, if ANY disagrees with either of these, then EXPLAIN HOW some 'thing' can be caused by NO 'thing' and/or HOW there could be a boundary.

If there is NO logical explanation for HOW either could be, then there is "your" logical proof that thee Universe is 'infinite' AND 'eternal'.

As for empirical proof, we can LOOK AT and DISCUSS this later.
The universe has a beginning. So you are wrong in your belief that it is eternal.
But I do NOT 'believe'. So, I do NOT 'believe' that the Universe is eternal. We have gone through this before. Have you forgotten already?

Do you have ACTUAL proof that the Universe began?

If yes, then WHY is that said and CLAIMED "proof" NOT agreed with and NOT accepted by "others"?

Are you aware that if you did have ACTUAL 'proof', then 'that' would be irrefutable, and thus could be agreed with and accepted by EVERY one?

What you say and CLAIM is NOT accepted and NOT agreed with by EVERY one. And this is BECAUSE NOT all of what you say is Right, True, NOR Correct, (as can be proven true). Although this is obviously contrary to what you BELIEVE is true. Do you understand this FACT?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:27 am For the second case, infinite universe, why do you think that the universe cannot be bounded?
Because there is absolutely NOTHING that could bound It.
Age
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Re: Infinity is real

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:33 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:40 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:17 am
No.
WHY are 'you' so SURE of "yourself" here?
Because I have a solid argument for it.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:23 am Being SO SURE of "yourselves" is WHY 'you', human beings, in the days of when this is written, are so SLOW and CLOSED in discovering, learning, and understanding more and new things.
Yes, including yourself that think that the universe is eternal.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:23 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:17 am
I am arguing that the whole is boundless.
You can argue till the day you cannot anymore. But without proof your arguments are, literally, NOTHING AT ALL.

If you cannot or will NOT tell us what you are basing your arguments off EXACTLY, then what you are saying is not really worth listening to.
The proof is there.
Yet you can NOT provide "it".

And until you CAN provide ACTUAL proof, you are just going to continue FAULTING and FAILING, like you have been here.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:33 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:23 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:17 am
Minds.
So, to you, the 'one' is really 'many', correct?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:17 am
They live and have reality.
AGAIN, as real living things, or, just in imagination only?

Could you REALLY NOT SEE what I was asking here?
I see what you are asking. And yes, they are living beings.
Really?

So, where are these, alleged and supposed, "living beings" called "dracula", "dragons", and "unicorns"?

Also, WHY is it only 'you', "bahman", here who BELIEVES that these 'things' are ACTUAL 'living beings'?
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bahman
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Re: Infinity is real

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:01 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:27 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:35 am
All sounds very unnecessary and unnecessarily complex.

But each to their own.
All are necessary and simple.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:35 am

Is this an irrefutable absolute truth, or just from your perspective only?
It is the absolute truth.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:35 am

LOL So, you read that I 'think' something, but then you tell me that I 'believe' something.

These are two VERY different things.
I know. I should have said think instead of believe in the first place.
Yes this is Correct, True, and Right, and therefore thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.
Cool. :mrgreen:
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:14 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:27 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:14 am What I have proof for has absolutely NO bearing on what I believe or not.

But I do LOOK AT and SEE the 'believe' word VERY DIFFERENTLY than you adult human beings do, in the days of when this was written.
Ok.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:14 am

There is NO 'my' proof.

What ACTUALLY exists is thee proof.

If 'you', human beings agree with and accept that EVERY 'thing' was caused by some 'thing', then that is thee ACTUAL proof thee Universe is 'eternal', and, if 'you', human beings agree with and accept that thee Universe can NOT be bounded, then that is thee ACTUAL proof thee Universe is 'infinite'.

Now, if ANY disagrees with either of these, then EXPLAIN HOW some 'thing' can be caused by NO 'thing' and/or HOW there could be a boundary.

If there is NO logical explanation for HOW either could be, then there is "your" logical proof that thee Universe is 'infinite' AND 'eternal'.

As for empirical proof, we can LOOK AT and DISCUSS this later.
The universe has a beginning. So you are wrong in your belief that it is eternal.
But I do NOT 'believe'. So, I do NOT 'believe' that the Universe is eternal. We have gone through this before. Have you forgotten already?

Do you have ACTUAL proof that the Universe began?

If yes, then WHY is that said and CLAIMED "proof" NOT agreed with and NOT accepted by "others"?

Are you aware that if you did have ACTUAL 'proof', then 'that' would be irrefutable, and thus could be agreed with and accepted by EVERY one?

What you say and CLAIM is NOT accepted and NOT agreed with by EVERY one. And this is BECAUSE NOT all of what you say is Right, True, NOR Correct, (as can be proven true). Although this is obviously contrary to what you BELIEVE is true. Do you understand this FACT?
It is your belief. We have already been through this.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:14 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:27 am For the second case, infinite universe, why do you think that the universe cannot be bounded?
Because there is absolutely NOTHING that could bound It.
What do you mean? That is not reasoning.
Age
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Re: Infinity is real

Post by Age »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:59 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:17 am Well that is one VERY TRULY ABSURD thing to say and suggest.
Absurd why?
Because it is 'you', "skepdick" who BELIEVES that it is IMPOSSIBLE to SEE past the observable, correct?
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bahman
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Re: Infinity is real

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:06 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:33 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:40 am
WHY are 'you' so SURE of "yourself" here?
Because I have a solid argument for it.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:23 am Being SO SURE of "yourselves" is WHY 'you', human beings, in the days of when this is written, are so SLOW and CLOSED in discovering, learning, and understanding more and new things.
Yes, including yourself that think that the universe is eternal.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:23 am
You can argue till the day you cannot anymore. But without proof your arguments are, literally, NOTHING AT ALL.

If you cannot or will NOT tell us what you are basing your arguments off EXACTLY, then what you are saying is not really worth listening to.
The proof is there.
Yet you can NOT provide "it".

And until you CAN provide ACTUAL proof, you are just going to continue FAULTING and FAILING, like you have been here.
Do you understand my argument?
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:23 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:33 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:23 am

So, to you, the 'one' is really 'many', correct?



AGAIN, as real living things, or, just in imagination only?

Could you REALLY NOT SEE what I was asking here?
I see what you are asking. And yes, they are living beings.
Really?

So, where are these, alleged and supposed, "living beings" called "dracula", "dragons", and "unicorns"?

Also, WHY is it only 'you', "bahman", here who BELIEVES that these 'things' are ACTUAL 'living beings'?
They are a living being as a matter of necessity, the whole is boundless.
Age
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Re: Infinity is real

Post by Age »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:40 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:33 pm So in other words, you're just claiming it exists period. Which was already the point under contention.

So, what has properties, exactly? (Don't answer "space," lol--I'm asking you what it is, exactly)
What does that question even mean?

What is ANYTHING exactly?

What is a cat exactly?
What is Earth exactly?
What are you exactly?
What is existence exactly?
ALL ARE what is agreed upon. As with the case for EVERY 'thing'.
Skepdick wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:40 pm Show me a man that demands precision in language and I'll show you an imprecise man.
Show me ANY one who 'demands' ANY 'thing' and I will show you an INCOMPLETE One.

If 'you' can NOT YET automatically SEE precision in language, then you are obviously just LOOKING the WRONG WAY.
Age
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Re: Infinity is real

Post by Age »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:42 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:37 pm Well, I already mentioned. The information spread with the speed of light in space. That means that space has texture. Information spreads with the speed of infinity in pure vacume.
Information never spreads faster than the speed of light - it's always bound by causality.

If you could violate this bound you'd effectively get time travel. Effects before causes.
How does this, supposedly, 'logically' follow?

Obviously there can NOT actually be an 'effect' before a 'cause'. There can be, of course, however, a 'perceived' 'effect' without a 'cause'. But this does NOT mean that there was an 'effect' without a 'cause'. If one BELIEVES that it is possible to get 'effects' before 'causes', then this just means that one is NOT LOOKING and NOT SEEING ACCURATELY and CORRECTLY.
Age
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Re: Infinity is real

Post by Age »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:42 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:41 pm He is talking about space.
He could be talking about anything.

When he demands ontological precision he's run out of sophistry.

In the most approximate/general sense (and from the lens of complexity theory) space is memory.
Or if you are a mathematically inclined - it's a topology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_complexity
But if you were to LOOK AT 'things' this way, then you will NEVER get to thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.

By the way, if you are actually intelligently inclined, then space is something completely different.
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