Proof that Absolutely Nothing absolutely exists as an Origin...

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Belinda
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Re: Proof that Absolutely Nothing absolutely exists as an Origin...

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:32 pm
Belinda wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:12 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:10 pm
That's wrong.

Everything that exists at any moment is the orgin of everything that exists the next moment.
So, RCSaunders, everything that exists at any moment is thoroughly embedded in its own necessity.
Don't know what you mean by, "necessity." If you're thinking, "determined," in a physical sense, then no. If you are thinking, whatever is cannot be anything other than what is, then yes.

It doesn't matter what is, what preceded it, whether a human choice or a physical state, what is now is what it is because of what immediately preceded it, that's all.
whatever is cannot be anything other than what is
describes necessity. It necessarily is whatever it is.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Proof that Absolutely Nothing absolutely exists as an Origin...

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:31 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:32 pm
Belinda wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:12 pm
So, RCSaunders, everything that exists at any moment is thoroughly embedded in its own necessity.
Don't know what you mean by, "necessity." If you're thinking, "determined," in a physical sense, then no. If you are thinking, whatever is cannot be anything other than what is, then yes.

It doesn't matter what is, what preceded it, whether a human choice or a physical state, what is now is what it is because of what immediately preceded it, that's all.
whatever is cannot be anything other than what is
describes necessity. It necessarily is whatever it is.
I see what you mean, but the word, "necessarily," is superfluous in that case, isn't it? "What is, is," of course, else it would be something else. A is A is the primary axiom of logic, not A is necessarily A.

A isn't A because it, "needs," to be. It's not "necessary" for A to be A, it just is A. What would it be necessary for? [Unless you think reality, itself, is contingent on something.]
Belinda
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Re: Proof that Absolutely Nothing absolutely exists as an Origin...

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:09 pm
Belinda wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:31 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:32 pm
Don't know what you mean by, "necessity." If you're thinking, "determined," in a physical sense, then no. If you are thinking, whatever is cannot be anything other than what is, then yes.

It doesn't matter what is, what preceded it, whether a human choice or a physical state, what is now is what it is because of what immediately preceded it, that's all.
whatever is cannot be anything other than what is
describes necessity. It necessarily is whatever it is.
I see what you mean, but the word, "necessarily," is superfluous in that case, isn't it? "What is, is," of course, else it would be something else. A is A is the primary axiom of logic, not A is necessarily A.

A isn't A because it, "needs," to be. It's not "necessary" for A to be A, it just is A. What would it be necessary for? [Unless you think reality, itself, is contingent on something.]
Some hold that an event is contingently what it is.
A unique event may be described as A=A. All events are unique events even under controlled laboratory conditions.
However both necessary events and contingent events are unique events; therefore A=A is a truism.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Proof that Absolutely Nothing absolutely exists as an Origin...

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:36 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:09 pm
Belinda wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:31 pm

describes necessity. It necessarily is whatever it is.
I see what you mean, but the word, "necessarily," is superfluous in that case, isn't it? "What is, is," of course, else it would be something else. A is A is the primary axiom of logic, not A is necessarily A.

A isn't A because it, "needs," to be. It's not "necessary" for A to be A, it just is A. What would it be necessary for? [Unless you think reality, itself, is contingent on something.]
Some hold that an event is contingently what it is.
A unique event may be described as A=A. All events are unique events even under controlled laboratory conditions.
However both necessary events and contingent events are unique events; therefore A=A is a truism.
It's actually A is A, not A = A. It's not a value relationship, it's an identity. What is A? It is A.

It does not only pertain to events but to all existents: entities, attributes, relationships, and events.

Every existent is unique, of course, as you say. No two things can be identical, else they would not be two things. If there is more than one thing and one of them is A, the other cannot be A. Thus the law if non-contradiction.
Scott Mayers
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Re: Proof that Absolutely Nothing absolutely exists as an Origin...

Post by Scott Mayers »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:10 pm
Scott Mayers wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:27 am ...
That's wrong.

Everything that exists at any moment is the orgin of everything that exists the next moment.
I am doubting that most people here even know Propositional (or Sentential) Calculus that would help. If you DO know this, then there is a paradox regarding implication: the Material Implication asserts that given Q, P → Q. That is, given anything, you can conclude that it is the case that some condition exists such that P can be anything, whether true or false.

This problem relates to the fact that we often interpret implication as "if P then Q" as it might suggest causation of Q by P.

"if (It rains), then (I will get wet)" suggests that rain in this conditional justifies me getting wet.

But notice, "if (I am alive), then (I had to have been born)" suggests a significant 'cause' of me being alive requires being born PRIOR to that fact.

So my argument has the form, "if (Absolutely Something/Anything exists), then (Absolutely Nothing exists)." Absolutely Nothing precedes causation and defines it by its very nature to imply BOTH Absolutely Nothing and Absolutely Something/Anything, which is a contradiction allowed by its meaning. Where Absolutely Nothing exists, it CAN be both but if ONLY Absolutely Something exists, Absolutely Nothing cannot exist.

So the first part I argued is that If (an origin exists), then (ONLY Absolutely Nothing is the origin). When you understand that time itself is also non-existing AT this possible fact, then Absolutely Nothing is timeless and covers each instantaneous point in time or space. This means that any point IN time or space is the same as this absolute. It is the 'background' to which anything in Totality is described. As such, since there ARE origins everywhere, the 'absolute' is identical to the 'relative' referents of "nothingness" anywhere we might find it.

Given that for one specific instantaneous point is 'nothing' and that a minimum of two distinct such points manifest 'something', nothing is essential to describe any one thiing. Can you have the converse? That is, can you begin with Absolutely Something OTHER THAN NOTHING that can be describable without reference to what it is not?
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RCSaunders
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Re: Proof that Absolutely Nothing absolutely exists as an Origin...

Post by RCSaunders »

Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:19 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:10 pm
Scott Mayers wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:27 am ...
That's wrong.

Everything that exists at any moment is the orgin of everything that exists the next moment.
This problem relates to the fact that we often interpret implication as "if P then Q" as it might suggest causation of Q by P.
May statement had nothing to do with, "causation," as you mean it. You are assuming some kind of progression of events. The statement is not, "the origin of a thing is what precedes it," but, everything that exists at any moment is the orgin of everything that exists the next ... "Moment may be left out because the order is not temporal, but logical. The only thing that can follow nothing is nothing.
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Re: Proof that Absolutely Nothing absolutely exists as an Origin...

Post by Scott Mayers »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:56 am
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:19 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:10 pm
That's wrong.

Everything that exists at any moment is the orgin of everything that exists the next moment.
This problem relates to the fact that we often interpret implication as "if P then Q" as it might suggest causation of Q by P.
May statement had nothing to do with, "causation," as you mean it. You are assuming some kind of progression of events. The statement is not, "the origin of a thing is what precedes it," but, everything that exists at any moment is the orgin of everything that exists the next ... "Moment may be left out because the order is not temporal, but logical. The only thing that can follow nothing is nothing.
I was expressing HOW the very 'paradox', as a contradiction that is literally real, operates AT a point that doesn't require time NOR SPACE to exist. Your assumption is that space still pre-exists, even while you at least recognize how every point in SPACE is a relative 'origin'.

Given that Absolutely Nothing isn't itself COMPELLED to 'law', it is also not required to OBEY to any apriori cause but itself. In contrast ANYTHING at all necessarily implies that something other than itself is required where laws itself DO exist. As such, only Absolutely Nothing as a real concept is sufficient AS a 'cause' to everything because in anything untrue, unreal, etc, is itself INFINITELY inclusive. This thus also would assure that ABSOLUTELY ALL (infinitely) is contained in Totality, which includes "Nothing" as a complementary part of Totality to "Anything".

Everything is then just abstracted possibilities of which worlds like ours is a 'consistent' (law-abiding) world contained in a whole that at its absolutely most inclusive state is itself Absolutely Nothing.

Then, since 'contradiction' can be understood as merely a pattern, and that it alone suffices to act as something we can deem is akin to ''force", then contradiction is itself suffices to be the universal factor that differentiates ordered consistent worlds from those that are just non-sensical (cannot formulate a consistent world).

It is thus NOT technically true to even say that anything 'follows' from Nothing because all is just abstract possibilities that 'manifest' reality in the same way one might be able to create a movie that we understand is artificially abstract, yet still 'real'. In fact, while a movie can be artificially created, we COULD create still manifest reality beyond ourselves through technology that while relatively 'nothing' from one perspective, it can be manifest to become real.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Proof that Absolutely Nothing absolutely exists as an Origin...

Post by RCSaunders »

Scott Mayers wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:54 am ... we COULD create still manifest reality beyond ourselves through technology ...
How?
Scott Mayers
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Re: Proof that Absolutely Nothing absolutely exists as an Origin...

Post by Scott Mayers »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:18 am
Scott Mayers wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:54 am ... we COULD create still manifest reality beyond ourselves through technology ...
How?
In principle. That we have cell phones, for example, is a technology that acts like 'psychic' phenomena realized. I never thought it would have had evolved to being able to even go beyond Star Trek's version! We are now able to directly read simple ideas in mind at the present and in some cases, able to ALTER our own thoughts. There is also Virtual Reality that continues to advance in ways that will demonstrate how we can CREATE alternative realities that are merely artificial with respect to our capacity to create from ABSTRACT ideas.

Reality itself IS just such a construct but it doesn't require a 'creator'. For those who insist this, then the 'Gods' themselves are still subject to the same argument of their own cause.
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Re: Proof that Absolutely Nothing absolutely exists as an Origin...

Post by Dontaskme »

Great topic. :D

Things only really exist because of their contrast.

For example: Not-knowing knowing, is the only knowing.

When nothing is known, everything is known. :D

For example: ''things'' in and of themselves don't know because ''things'' are being known. And the known know nothing.
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Re: Proof that Absolutely Nothing absolutely exists as an Origin...

Post by Belinda »

Things only really exist because of their contrast.
Good one, DAM.
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Re: Proof that Absolutely Nothing absolutely exists as an Origin...

Post by Terrapin Station »

The first post in this thread, aside from appearing to be the middle of another conversation for some reason, reads like the Time Cube page.
Scott Mayers
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Re: Proof that Absolutely Nothing absolutely exists as an Origin...

Post by Scott Mayers »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:40 pm The first post in this thread, aside from appearing to be the middle of another conversation for some reason, reads like the Time Cube page.
What is your reference, "Time Cube page" mean? It is awkward trying to find colloquial ways to describe something intially before being more exact. To me, I feel like I'm describing a 'taboo' in the same way that the original Pythagorean found certain numbers to be literally, "irrational" yet "real" at the same time. Zero was similarly tabooed for most of human history. Can you imaging the frustration of the first ones attempting to describe the meaning of 'zero' as a real concept? It was tabooed in a religious way that imposed itself upon the society as a whole to be 'cursed' should they try. :wink:
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Re: Proof that Absolutely Nothing absolutely exists as an Origin...

Post by Terrapin Station »

Scott Mayers wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:56 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:40 pm The first post in this thread, aside from appearing to be the middle of another conversation for some reason, reads like the Time Cube page.
What is your reference, "Time Cube page" mean? It is awkward trying to find colloquial ways to describe something intially before being more exact. To me, I feel like I'm describing a 'taboo' in the same way that the original Pythagorean found certain numbers to be literally, "irrational" yet "real" at the same time. Zero was similarly tabooed for most of human history. Can you imaging the frustration of the first ones attempting to describe the meaning of 'zero' as a real concept? It was tabooed in a religious way that imposed itself upon the society as a whole to be 'cursed' should they try. :wink:
TIme Cube: https://timecube.2enp.com/
Scott Mayers
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Re: Proof that Absolutely Nothing absolutely exists as an Origin...

Post by Scott Mayers »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:01 pm
Scott Mayers wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:56 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:40 pm The first post in this thread, aside from appearing to be the middle of another conversation for some reason, reads like the Time Cube page.
What is your reference, "Time Cube page" mean? It is awkward trying to find colloquial ways to describe something intially before being more exact. To me, I feel like I'm describing a 'taboo' in the same way that the original Pythagorean found certain numbers to be literally, "irrational" yet "real" at the same time. Zero was similarly tabooed for most of human history. Can you imaging the frustration of the first ones attempting to describe the meaning of 'zero' as a real concept? It was tabooed in a religious way that imposed itself upon the society as a whole to be 'cursed' should they try. :wink:
TIme Cube: https://timecube.2enp.com/
I thought it was some insult. :roll:

Thanks. I don't think what I've said maps to a religious interpretation. I don't posit ANYTHING as a literal point to argue from, namely, NO THING. The reason WHY religion exists at all is precisely due to transference of something with NO special reference to be interpreted AS A SPECIAL LITERAL being or essence, like a 'god', who cares enough for us to create this world with special 'goldilocks' conditions that makes our particular universe most 'special' (and usually, for us uniquely).

If the comparison still sticks for you, what precisely transfers "nothing" to have manifest reality specifically for us and its faithful followers?
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