Noumenon

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raw_thought
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Re: Noumenon

Post by raw_thought »

Time does not pass, That is why Einstein said, ""“Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. For us believing physicists the distinction between past, present, and future only has the meaning of an illusion, though a persistent one."
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Re: Noumenon

Post by raw_thought »

If the "now" moment moves down a timeline, how big is this "now moment" ? It has to be infinitely small! How can we be aware of anything for an infinitesimal moment?
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attofishpi
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Re: Noumenon

Post by attofishpi »

raw_thought wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:03 pm "it does pass into the past"
What do you mean by that? If you are saying that the present moves into the past that contradicts Einstein. How fast does it move?
Don't be daft.

Time passing is a term used by us to denote that indeed a clock is ticking, that events have occurred that will never be repeated.

As you mentioned, XYZ are measurable dimensions, and I insisted that 'time' is also a measurable man-made construct to denote the amount of events that have occurred.

Which one of the below is plausible?

I can meet you tomorrow at 1330 at XYZ.

I can meet you yesterday at 1330 at XYZ.
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Re: Noumenon

Post by raw_thought »

read my posts
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Re: Noumenon

Post by raw_thought »

Your response is not an objection to the block universe.
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Re: Noumenon

Post by raw_thought »

You wrote, " As you mentioned, XYZ are measurable dimensions, and I insisted that 'time' is also a measurable man-made construct to denote the amount of events that have occurred."
OK and what is your point? So you agree with me. That seconds, minutes etc are conventions just as inches and miles are.

You wrote, "Which one of the below is plausible
? I can meet you tomorrow at 1330 at XYZ.
I can meet you yesterday at 1330 at XYZ.
Your point???? Ok the first one.
Your points show a total misunderstanding of Einstein's block universe. Your "points" have nothing to do with our debate.
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Re: Noumenon

Post by raw_thought »

Imagine a time line. a_____b_____c. "a" relative to "b" is in the past. "b" relative to "c" is in the past.
"b" relative to "a" is in the future. However, "b" relative to "c" is in the past. Einstein was saying that there is no absolute past or absolute future points. Your "objection" is silly. Einstein was not saying that 2 events cannot be related by a past future relationship. Your objection is like if I say, " Detroit is west of New York and east of San Francisco. " Then you say " do not be daft there is a difference between east and west. "
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Re: Noumenon

Post by raw_thought »

My "now" might not be your "now". However, that does not mean that I can travel into my past. That is why I asked what Kant meant by saying that the noumenon is timeless. Obviously Kant did not anticipate Einstein's Relativity. However, perhaps they can be made to support each other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativit ... multaneity
Of course you can dispute Relativity. But just remember that it has been confirmed!
https://www.space.com/8024-einstein-gen ... irmed.html
owl of Minerva
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Re: Noumenon

Post by owl of Minerva »

The noumenon may be considered timeless and spaceless because it is not in time and space.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Noumenon

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

owl of Minerva wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:55 pm The noumenon may be considered timeless and spaceless because it is not in time and space.
In the first place the noumenon is not supposed to be a thing at all, i.e. a thing-in-itself.
If it is not a thing there is no question of whether it is spaceless or timeless as if it is like God.
The below is what I posted earlier and I understand it is not easy for most to grasp it but the point is from Kant's book - The Critique of Pure Reason.
raw_thought wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:37 pm Can anyone explain why Kant's Noumenon is considered timeless and spaceless? We can debate later if the Noumenon is real or not.
The concept of Kant's noumenon is never intended nor to be considered timeless and spaceless.

Kant's Critique of Pure Reason is presented in various distinct phases to facilitate easier understanding.

Kant began his Critique of Pure Reason with the knowledge of objects.
However in consideration of objects one can be caught in a state of infinite regression when the question of the substance of the object is raised.
Question like how can something appeared without 'that which appears" but it lead only to turtles all the way [???].

So to confine the discussion of object to the empirical [first phase] and to avoid the stretch to infinite regression, Kant introduced the TEMPORARY concept of the noumenon to assume [pretend] there is a substance to all objects.
The concept is merely a limiting concept and nothing of substance [space, time, real or unreal] should be speculated on it.
Kant wrote:The Concept of a Noumenon is thus a merely limiting Concept, the Function of which is to curb the pretensions of Sensibility; and it is therefore only of negative employment. B311
The concept of the noumenon can be represented as [???].
In the subsequent phase the [???] is deemed a thing-in-itself.
In the final state the [???] is merely an idea and illusion.

The danger is when the [???] is reified as a thing, it will naturally lead it to be a God which is actually an illusion that cannot be proven to be real but such a reified illusion can lead to real terrible evil and violence as in the case of Islam and various negatives in other cases of theism.

This natural drive to reify the illusory as in theism is very psychological and the solution to all evil and problems associated with such reification should also be psychological.
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Re: Noumenon

Post by Ginkgo »

owl of Minerva wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:55 pm The noumenon may be considered timeless and spaceless because it is not in time and space.
I think this is basically correct. The noumenon is universal and therefore transcends time and space. If it wasn't timeless and spaceless then it would be phenomena
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Re: Noumenon

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Ginkgo wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:12 am
owl of Minerva wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:55 pm The noumenon may be considered timeless and spaceless because it is not in time and space.
I think this is basically correct. The noumenon is universal and therefore transcends time and space. If it wasn't timeless and spaceless then it would be phenomena
Have you taken into account of what I wrote in the previous posts?
Do you have any counters for it before you make your claims above?
Ginkgo
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Re: Noumenon

Post by Ginkgo »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:35 am
Ginkgo wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:12 am
owl of Minerva wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:55 pm The noumenon may be considered timeless and spaceless because it is not in time and space.
I think this is basically correct. The noumenon is universal and therefore transcends time and space. If it wasn't timeless and spaceless then it would be phenomena
Have you taken into account of what I wrote in the previous posts?
Do you have any counters for it before you make your claims above?
I hadn't until just now. I would say we have a fundamental disagreement.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Noumenon

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Since a noumenon can't be experienced, one cannot know of it, thus it might simply be a false concept, a place holder for those things one cannot yet know.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Noumenon

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Ginkgo wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:11 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:35 am
Ginkgo wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:12 am
I think this is basically correct. The noumenon is universal and therefore transcends time and space. If it wasn't timeless and spaceless then it would be phenomena
Have you taken into account of what I wrote in the previous posts?
Do you have any counters for it before you make your claims above?
I hadn't until just now. I would say we have a fundamental disagreement.
To support your disagreement, you have to provide references from Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. I am looking forward to read your counter to my point.
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