SELF

So what's really going on?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
waechter418
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:19 am
Location: Costa Rica
Contact:

SELF

Post by waechter418 »

There are various interpretations of Self; for example: there is the Self of Ego, the Self called Soul, the Hindu Atman and a universal Self.
Whatever the theories – Self is the core and in a certain way the coordinate of every human being.
Possibly due to the difficulties of defining Self, the relationship with its beholder gets sometimes stressed – even so far, that latter doubts the presence of prior.
But Self is vital, as it knows the true nature and needs of its beholder and thus becomes particular important when turmoil and confusion threaten its physical & mental wellbeing.
There are many unification teachings, but most of them focus on a higher instead on a common Self, despite that we are selfish creatures and thus foremost interested in our own troubles, and who is more qualified to handle them but Self.
odysseus
Posts: 306
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:30 pm

Re: SELF

Post by odysseus »

waechter418 wrote

There are various interpretations of Self; for example: there is the Self of Ego, the Self called Soul, the Hindu Atman and a universal Self.
Whatever the theories – Self is the core and in a certain way the coordinate of every human being.
Possibly due to the difficulties of defining Self, the relationship with its beholder gets sometimes stressed – even so far, that latter doubts the presence of prior.
But Self is vital, as it knows the true nature and needs of its beholder and thus becomes particular important when turmoil and confusion threaten its physical & mental wellbeing.
There are many unification teachings, but most of them focus on a higher instead on a common Self, despite that we are selfish creatures and thus foremost interested in our own troubles, and who is more qualified to handle them but Self.
So, you have me on pins and needles. What IS the self? I you would, try not to put something just baldly assertive. I mean, explain it to me a little.
User avatar
waechter418
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:19 am
Location: Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: SELF

Post by waechter418 »

As already mentioned, there are various aspects and many interpretations of Self
check
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_self
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_of_self

Yet, the aim of this post is not to increase the amount of respective oppinions, but to figure out how to depend on one Self when, for example, money hungry power mongers, cults, media, politicians, corporations and other crazies increase (quite successfully) their efforts to subject everyone to their vile ends.
AlexW
Posts: 780
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:53 am

Re: SELF

Post by AlexW »

As I see it, there is a (ego)self, which is nothing but a collection of conceptual thought - beliefs, judgements, preferences etc etc - it’s what we call the person, the individual. The self only exists in the world of concepts, it is temporary (has been acquired via learning since early childhood) and is in constant change/flux.
The self arises as a conceptual (some might say: illusory) entity in consciousness (which some might call: the real Self).
Consciousness is not a concept, it is not dualistic, not objective, not limited - in short: its not a thing.
Calling it Self is as such misleading, its not personal, not owned by an individual.
User avatar
waechter418
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:19 am
Location: Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: SELF

Post by waechter418 »

Proposition:
All our deeds, emotions, thoughts, creeds – and whatever else we are trying to relate ourselves with – are expression of ConsciousNess which thus exercises its possibilities in order to realize itSelf.
AlexW
Posts: 780
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:53 am

Re: SELF

Post by AlexW »

waechter418 wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:59 pm Proposition:
All our deeds, emotions, thoughts, creeds – and whatever else we are trying to relate ourselves with – are expression of ConsciousNess which thus exercises its possibilities in order to realize itSelf.
I agree (partially), yes, everything is an expression of consciousness - we could say: „there is only consciousness“, but to postulate that it has a goal is, in my opinion, at least questionable.
All that could ever have a goal - eg to realise something - is the mind/thought and as such the ego-self. It wants to grow, better itself or even overcome itself, it also wants to realize many things, one such thing is consciousness... but it doesn’t see that the ego itself is nothing but a changeable collection of opinions and beliefs... what changes when we realise something? Its only a change of opinion, its a different interpretation... consciousness itself is forever unchanged. It doesn’t need to realise itself, its all there is, no need to go looking for it (but the funny thing is, that’s exactly what thought does... it looks for something that’s not a thing :) )
But as everything is an expression of consciousness one could say that even trying to catch one’s own tail is such an expression too... which is of course also a way of seeing it ...
User avatar
waechter418
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:19 am
Location: Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: SELF

Post by waechter418 »

thank you for straightening out my careless "proposition" :roll:
Perhaps i can help a little bit with quoting the beginning of my post "Another view of Consciousness"(viewtopic.php?f=16&t=20429)

The following is based on the supposition that unity comprises multiplicity in order to realize itself.
The interaction of unity and multiplicity is called ConsciousNess and regarded as an inter-extrapolation that relates in a viewpoint which manifests ConsciousNess.
AlexW
Posts: 780
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:53 am

Re: SELF

Post by AlexW »

waechter418 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:18 am thank you for straightening out my careless "proposition"
Don't think it was careless - quite the opposite, you took much care formulating it.
Its all we (thought) can do - formulate propositions, come up with interpretations ... all to explain the ineffable... what a fun game to play :)
waechter418 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:18 am The following is based on the supposition that unity comprises multiplicity in order to realize itself.
Sure - it's one proposition. Somebody else might believe "unity comprises multiplicity in order" to simply have fun, or not to be bored or whatever...
I think that proposing reasons as to why things seem to happen are simply conceptual ideas, opinions and belief - but never absolute truth.
waechter418 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:18 am The interaction of unity and multiplicity is called ConsciousNess and regarded as an inter-extrapolation that relates in a viewpoint which manifests ConsciousNess.
How did you come to this conclusion?

As far as I can tell, all that one knows is derived from direct sensual experience - this direct experience is conceptualised and then theories and propositions are formed. There are some propositions - like: there is no separation - which actually gel with what is being directly experienced.
Does your proposition gel as well? If so... how?
User avatar
waechter418
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:19 am
Location: Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: SELF

Post by waechter418 »

waechter418 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:18 am The interaction of unity and multiplicity is called ConsciousNess and regarded as an inter-extrapolation that relates in a viewpoint which manifests ConsciousNess.
How did you come to this conclusion?

I don´t know - i often get surprised by the conclusions of my mind, which is suposed to depend on sensual experience
AlexW
Posts: 780
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:53 am

Re: SELF

Post by AlexW »

waechter418 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:26 am I don´t know - i often get surprised by the conclusions of my mind, which is suposed to depend on sensual experience
Conclusions and interpretations do not have to depend on sensual experience - actually: a large amount (if not most) of our interpretations do not properly describe the underlying experience.

It is therefore interesting to investigate direct experience as honestly as possible - which means: question everything that your mind says about the experience and then see if our conventional, thought-based interpretations of what is being experienced actually gel with "reality" (eg: do you really experience separate objects? do you experience time or distance? etc etc)
Dontaskme
Posts: 9977
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: SELF

Post by Dontaskme »

Image
User avatar
waechter418
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:19 am
Location: Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: SELF

Post by waechter418 »

It is counterproductive to search for Self as its space/time is here/now – nor is it to be subjected to the feedback-mechanism of the intellect, or otherwise constrained – but wholeheartedly embraced.
AlexW
Posts: 780
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:53 am

Re: SELF

Post by AlexW »

waechter418 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:01 pm It is counterproductive to search for Self as its space/time is here/now
So is the space/time of an apple...
But, yes, agree, its counterproductive to search for something that is not a thing.
How could you find it...? Simply by realising that you never lost it (but rather are it).
waechter418 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:01 pm nor is it to be subjected to the feedback-mechanism of the intellect, or otherwise constrained
Yet... we think and talk about it a lot...
waechter418 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:01 pm but wholeheartedly embraced.
Which means... Be present here/now and not on a permanent holiday in "thought land" :-)
User avatar
waechter418
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:19 am
Location: Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: SELF

Post by waechter418 »

in other words: LoveThySelf
Advocate
Posts: 2648
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: SELF

Post by Advocate »

waechter418 wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:35 pm There are various interpretations of Self; for example: there is the Self of Ego, the Self called Soul, the Hindu Atman and a universal Self.
Whatever the theories – Self is the core and in a certain way the coordinate of every human being.
Possibly due to the difficulties of defining Self, the relationship with its beholder gets sometimes stressed – even so far, that latter doubts the presence of prior.
But Self is vital, as it knows the true nature and needs of its beholder and thus becomes particular important when turmoil and confusion threaten its physical & mental wellbeing.
There are many unification teachings, but most of them focus on a higher instead on a common Self, despite that we are selfish creatures and thus foremost interested in our own troubles, and who is more qualified to handle them but Self.
We are embodied beings and as such, our self is a perspective - a "core" experience that integrates all our perspective-based sensory information. The exterior/material world is proven by our senses being OF something, not arbitrary or internally circular. The words self, consciousness, perspective, awareness, being, existence, are aspects of the same thing - our individual place in space and time, with our individual set of filters and understandings incorporated. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =622235762
Post Reply