Anything which cannot be created cannot be annihilated too

So what's really going on?

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bahman
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Re: Anything which cannot be created cannot be annihilated too

Post by bahman » Tue May 12, 2020 7:27 pm

Belinda wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:47 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 6:53 pm
Belinda wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 9:19 am
Bahman, you have confirmed you are a substance dualist. You wrote (27 April)

You say "mind". Do you mean minds (plural ) can't be created ?
Yes. If that resolves the issue monist.
Thanks but not quite. You have not said what cannot create minds. You see, I'd say nature created minds . I'd also say human beings can't create minds.
I would say that nature also cannot create a mind. Let's suppose otherwise. This means that there is a process, that people call it evolution, in which you get the mind out of other things. This process, however, in principle can be known and repeated by an intelligent agent. Mind, however, cannot be created since it doesn't have structure. Therefore, nature also cannot create a mind.

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bahman
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Re: Anything which cannot be created cannot be annihilated too

Post by bahman » Tue May 12, 2020 7:42 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 9:35 am
bahman wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 6:59 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:04 am
Ok

Ok then, clarify the idea ''I am a substance dualist''.. for us ?
There are ideas. You cannot doubt this. Ideas without a mind cannot be coherent. For coherence you need, a memory, ability to experience, to decide, to cause, to process what has been experienced (in case of human thinking).
Thanks for the clarification.
Your welcome. :)
Dontaskme wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 9:35 am
And yes, nothing is known without a knower. But the knower and known can only arise together they are mutually arising in the instant. Any apparent split of subject and object, screen(mind) and picture (knowledge) = separation is an illusion.
It is not an illusion. It is necessary.
Dontaskme wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 9:35 am
To be aware of memory is to artificially bring to life what is actually dead.
I don't understand what you mean with dead. The stuff as a memory we perceive, the information, resides somewhere since we can retrieve it whenever we want. Yes, this information doesn't experience itself if that is what you mean with dead.
Dontaskme wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 9:35 am
Awareness is the LIGHT which animates the film (memory / imprint) as if it's a living continuous movie appearing on the screen of mind. In reality, it's just a movie show made of light and sound being projected by it's own LIGHT source. There is no ''character'' upon the screen separate from the screen on which is it being projected, it's all the play of the ONE LIGHT...which is just another word for Consciousness.

Conscious awareness is neither dead nor alive, it just IS...UNCREATED AND UNDYING.

That's my defintion of clarity.

.
And this movie just works coherently by chance. Why it is not vague? Why it is not a sequence random frames?

Belinda
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Re: Anything which cannot be created cannot be annihilated too

Post by Belinda » Wed May 13, 2020 8:07 am

bahman wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:27 pm
Belinda wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:47 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 6:53 pm

Yes. If that resolves the issue monist.
Thanks but not quite. You have not said what cannot create minds. You see, I'd say nature created minds . I'd also say human beings can't create minds.
I would say that nature also cannot create a mind. Let's suppose otherwise. This means that there is a process, that people call it evolution, in which you get the mind out of other things. This process, however, in principle can be known and repeated by an intelligent agent. Mind, however, cannot be created since it doesn't have structure. Therefore, nature also cannot create a mind.
Well spoken as a substance dualist! I wonder if it has ever it ever been known for a substance dualist to become or even understand a substance monist. I guess you, Bahman, are a religious. If you were to lose your faith would you lose your faith minds are a different substance from brains?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Anything which cannot be created cannot be annihilated too

Post by Dontaskme » Wed May 13, 2020 10:52 am

bahman wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:42 pm
It is not an illusion. It is necessary.
Necessary only in the context the illusion is real within the context the word 'real' and the word 'illusion' is conceptually known.
But in reality, there is nothing real or unreal...except in this conception.

There's just what IS (WHICH IS CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUT AN OBJECT) without the unecessary label being attached, superimposed upon what just IS.


To attach a label only describes what is otherwise this immediate not-knowning knowing to become an objective known ..and that which is objectively known can never be known by the object known. It's tricky!

.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Anything which cannot be created cannot be annihilated too

Post by Dontaskme » Wed May 13, 2020 11:22 am

bahman wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:42 pm
I don't understand what you mean with dead. The stuff as a memory we perceive, the information, resides somewhere since we can retrieve it whenever we want. Yes, this information doesn't experience itself if that is what you mean with dead.
That somewhere is only ever here-now-nowhere. Memory is here-now-nowhere.

This immediate now-here-nowhere is who you are, and so there is no need to retrieve who you are..you already are right here and now as this present presence, the only place there is.

In present presence, who you really are, there is no information present. Information can only come from past tense which is always embedded within what is only ever the present now.. which is constantly feeding the illusory continuity of an ever present presence of you now... There is no you in memory, memory is just information informing the uninformed here-now present presence nowhere - Again, it's tricky!

.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Anything which cannot be created cannot be annihilated too

Post by Dontaskme » Wed May 13, 2020 11:31 am

bahman wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:42 pm
And this movie just works coherently by chance. Why it is not vague? Why it is not a sequence random frames?
Not sure what you mean now...but all I can say in response is...

It works sequence by sequence, frame by frame, just like any movie reel that when exposed to the light projecter on contact the film moves...so as one sequence arises it is known immediately on contact, one with the knowing and each can be said about every sequence that arises...and so as each sequence is known this gives continuity to what becomes a living working movie. And the reason it is continuous and seamless is because there is nothing that can cut it - or stop it - there is no rewind button either, it's just totally going live all by itself.

We replicate this process everytime we make a movie to later show on a big cinema screen. It's all the same process, except the waking life movie appears as if it's more real than the fictional movie...and yet both are being operated and created and shown on and by the same ONE consciousness.

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bahman
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Re: Anything which cannot be created cannot be annihilated too

Post by bahman » Wed May 13, 2020 7:53 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 8:07 am
bahman wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:27 pm
Belinda wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:47 pm
Thanks but not quite. You have not said what cannot create minds. You see, I'd say nature created minds . I'd also say human beings can't create minds.
I would say that nature also cannot create a mind. Let's suppose otherwise. This means that there is a process, that people call it evolution, in which you get the mind out of other things. This process, however, in principle can be known and repeated by an intelligent agent. Mind, however, cannot be created since it doesn't have structure. Therefore, nature also cannot create a mind.
Well spoken as a substance dualist! I wonder if it has ever it ever been known for a substance dualist to become or even understand a substance monist. I guess you, Bahman, are a religious. If you were to lose your faith would you lose your faith minds are a different substance from brains?
I don't believe in God, the creator (I have an argument against the act of creation), but I think that spiritual reality is real. This is not based on fact by my spiritual experiences which are very vast, almost fifteen years of dealing with other creatures. I think the brain is only a medium between the external world and the mind. Mind to me exists as a matter fact, the decision made by a person is irreducible therefore it cannot be due to many entities. I also once experience my mind.

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bahman
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Re: Anything which cannot be created cannot be annihilated too

Post by bahman » Wed May 13, 2020 7:55 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 10:52 am
bahman wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:42 pm
It is not an illusion. It is necessary.
Necessary only in the context the illusion is real within the context the word 'real' and the word 'illusion' is conceptually known.
But in reality, there is nothing real or unreal...except in this conception.

There's just what IS (WHICH IS CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUT AN OBJECT) without the unecessary label being attached, superimposed upon what just IS.


To attach a label only describes what is otherwise this immediate not-knowning knowing to become an objective known ..and that which is objectively known can never be known by the object known. It's tricky!

.
It is necessary as I would argue in future posts.

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bahman
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Re: Anything which cannot be created cannot be annihilated too

Post by bahman » Wed May 13, 2020 8:03 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 11:22 am
bahman wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:42 pm
I don't understand what you mean with dead. The stuff as a memory we perceive, the information, resides somewhere since we can retrieve it whenever we want. Yes, this information doesn't experience itself if that is what you mean with dead.
That somewhere is only ever here-now-nowhere. Memory is here-now-nowhere.
Yes, mind doesn't have any location. It, however, experience matter.
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 11:22 am
This immediate now-here-nowhere is who you are, and so there is no need to retrieve who you are..you already are right here and now as this present presence, the only place there is.
True. But I have memory too. I can approach the future too.
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 11:22 am
In present presence, who you really are, there is no information present. Information can only come from past tense which is always embedded within what is only ever the present now
True. Everything is present to the mind at now.
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 11:22 am
.. which is constantly feeding the illusory continuity of an ever present presence of you now...
I am not an illusion arguing with another illusion.
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 11:22 am
There is no you in memory, memory is just information informing the uninformed here-now present presence nowhere - Again, it's tricky!

.
Yes, there is no me in my memory. Memory is in me.

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bahman
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Re: Anything which cannot be created cannot be annihilated too

Post by bahman » Wed May 13, 2020 8:07 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 11:31 am
bahman wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:42 pm
And this movie just works coherently by chance. Why it is not vague? Why it is not a sequence random frames?
Not sure what you mean now...but all I can say in response is...
Think of a movie. Frames come in order in order to carry a meaning. Now, take the frames and put them in a random sequence. What you see is now doesn't carry any meaning since it is random. I am wondering why reality carry a meaning.
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 11:31 am
It works sequence by sequence, frame by frame, just like any movie reel that when exposed to the light projecter on contact the film moves...so as one sequence arises it is known immediately on contact, one with the knowing and each can be said about every sequence that arises...and so as each sequence is known this gives continuity to what becomes a living working movie. And the reason it is continuous and seamless is because there is nothing that can cut it - or stop it - there is no rewind button either, it's just totally going live all by itself.

We replicate this process everytime we make a movie to later show on a big cinema screen. It's all the same process, except the waking life movie appears as if it's more real than the fictional movie...and yet both are being operated and created and shown on and by the same ONE consciousness.
Yes, it is a sequence. But we can affect this sequence. This cannot be due to illusion since the illusion is indifferent.

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