What is an Atheist?

So what's really going on?

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seeds
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by seeds »

commonsense wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:47 pm
seeds wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:56 pm _______

The OP asks:

"...What is an Atheist?..."

To which I suggest that no one be fooled by the hypocritical bluster of atheists, for atheists (by default) have their own version of God.

Though they will vehemently deny such a thing, nevertheless, just like theists, atheists believe in an "invisible creative deity."

Indeed, atheists (again, by default) believe in the existence of an invisible god called "CHANCE" who somehow managed to "stumblebum" its way into creating the unfathomable order implicit in the following images...

Image

Image

The irony is that not only are atheists closet theists, as described above, but the reverential "faith" that atheists have in the creative powers of their invisible god called "CHANCE," would put to shame the most devout Christian, Muslim, or Jew.
_______
Chance is no God.
Sure it is.

Whether they admit it or not, chance is the "Creator God" of the materialist's universe.
commonsense wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:47 pm It has no intention to be creative.
Yet, according to what atheism/materialism must logically default to, it (chance) somehow managed to create the unthinkable order of the universe.
commonsense wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:47 pm It has neither power nor knowledge.
Well, evidently, it had the power and knowledge to cause disparate bits of (post Bang) quantum phenomena to come together and coalesce into an unimaginably stable and fully-equipped setting...

Image

...from which a wondrous mind like yours could then effloresce from the very fabric of the setting itself.
commonsense wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:47 pm Randomly, chance may result in order, but it is random nonetheless.
It is absolutely absurd to think that the order implicit in, again, this image...

Image

...is the result of the blind and mindless processes of gravity and thermodynamics.

The only difference I can see between saying something alive and intelligent created the universe, and that of saying that chance created the universe, is that the latter is infinitely less plausible than the former.
_______
uwot
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by uwot »

seeds wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:56 pm...atheists (by default) have their own version of God.

Though they will vehemently deny such a thing, nevertheless, just like theists, atheists believe in an "invisible creative deity."

Indeed, atheists (again, by default) believe in the existence of an invisible god called "CHANCE"...
Oh seeds, not you too. I take it you haven't read my last post, two above yours:
uwot wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:01 amQuite frankly the labels are a distraction, but here is how I understand them anyway:
Theists believe there is a god
Atheists don't believe there is a god
Anti-theists believe there is no god
Those are the three basic positions. It is pointless quibbling about definitions, but to be clear I don't believe there is a god and, in my language, that makes me an atheist. It is a statement of belief, and not a truth claim. I appreciate that in many people's books that makes me agnostic, but I'm used to hearing that word to mean someone who believes there is no evidence for a god.
seeds wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:56 pmThe irony is that not only are atheists closet theists, as described above...
As I said, there's no point quibbling about definitions, but then the answer to 'What is an atheist?' becomes whatever you choose.
commonsense
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by commonsense »

uwot wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:37 pm
seeds wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:56 pm...atheists (by default) have their own version of God.

Though they will vehemently deny such a thing, nevertheless, just like theists, atheists believe in an "invisible creative deity."

Indeed, atheists (again, by default) believe in the existence of an invisible god called "CHANCE"...
Oh seeds, not you too. I take it you haven't read my last post, two above yours:
uwot wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:01 amQuite frankly the labels are a distraction, but here is how I understand them anyway:
Theists believe there is a god
Atheists don't believe there is a god
Anti-theists believe there is no god
Those are the three basic positions. It is pointless quibbling about definitions, but to be clear I don't believe there is a god and, in my language, that makes me an atheist. It is a statement of belief, and not a truth claim. I appreciate that in many people's books that makes me agnostic, but I'm used to hearing that word to mean someone who believes there is no evidence for a god.
seeds wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:56 pmThe irony is that not only are atheists closet theists, as described above...
As I said, there's no point quibbling about definitions, but then the answer to 'What is an atheist?' becomes whatever you choose.
I gather that seeds is saying that the answer to “What is an atheist?” is “A theist”. That seems problematic.
seeds
Posts: 2146
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by seeds »

uwot wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:37 pm
seeds wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:56 pm...atheists (by default) have their own version of God.

Though they will vehemently deny such a thing, nevertheless, just like theists, atheists believe in an "invisible creative deity."

Indeed, atheists (again, by default) believe in the existence of an invisible god called "CHANCE"...
Oh seeds, not you too. I take it you haven't read my last post, two above yours:
uwot wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:01 amQuite frankly the labels are a distraction, but here is how I understand them anyway:
Theists believe there is a god
Atheists don't believe there is a god
Anti-theists believe there is no god
Those are the three basic positions. It is pointless quibbling about definitions, but to be clear I don't believe there is a god and, in my language, that makes me an atheist...
In light of the mythological nonsense handed down to us from ancient minds via the world's religions (combined with a lack of any verifiable evidence for the existence of God), I completely understand why you would call yourself an atheist (of the "second kind" per your list).

However, I cannot help but ask that if you do not believe that the universe is the product of some higher level of intelligence, then what is the alternative?

And if you repeat to me what you have admitted several times in the past, that you haven't completely ruled-out Berkeley's concept of God, then you're simply not the type of hardcore atheist (i.e., the third option in your list) to which my comments are directed.

Again, if you honestly believe that there is no higher intelligence involved in the creation of the universe, then don't be wishy-washy in your answer. Just tell me what you think the alternative might be?
_______
popeye1945
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by popeye1945 »

An atheist is just someone who requires some inclination in the way of evidence, even of the smallest amount, which would influence an individual's sense of probability. No evidence, no probability, no belief. Any bible Trumpers here, we are having a hate in on Friday 1 o'clock, be there or be square!!
commonsense
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by commonsense »

seeds wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:39 pm
uwot wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:37 pm
seeds wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:56 pm...atheists (by default) have their own version of God.

Though they will vehemently deny such a thing, nevertheless, just like theists, atheists believe in an "invisible creative deity."

Indeed, atheists (again, by default) believe in the existence of an invisible god called "CHANCE"...
Oh seeds, not you too. I take it you haven't read my last post, two above yours:
uwot wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:01 amQuite frankly the labels are a distraction, but here is how I understand them anyway:
Theists believe there is a god
Atheists don't believe there is a god
Anti-theists believe there is no god
Those are the three basic positions. It is pointless quibbling about definitions, but to be clear I don't believe there is a god and, in my language, that makes me an atheist...
In light of the mythological nonsense handed down to us from ancient minds via the world's religions (combined with a lack of any verifiable evidence for the existence of God), I completely understand why you would call yourself an atheist (of the "second kind" per your list).

However, I cannot help but ask that if you do not believe that the universe is the product of some higher level of intelligence, then what is the alternative?

And if you repeat to me what you have admitted several times in the past, that you haven't completely ruled-out Berkeley's concept of God, then you're simply not the type of hardcore atheist (i.e., the third option in your list) to which my comments are directed.

Again, if you honestly believe that there is no higher intelligence involved in the creation of the universe, then don't be wishy-washy in your answer. Just tell me what you think the alternative might be?
_______
The universe was not created. It has always been. It is ordered only in the minds of those who say so. In reality the universe is a patternless cacophony of chaos.
commonsense
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by commonsense »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:46 pm Any bible Trumpers here, we are having a hate in on Friday 1 o'clock, be there or be square!!
Bible Trumper is an oxymoron. No one has ever claimed that Trump follows any dictate of the Holy Book!
popeye1945
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by popeye1945 »

commonsense wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:14 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:46 pm Any bible Trumpers here, we are having a hate in on Friday 1 o'clock, be there or be square!!
Bible Trumper is an oxymoron. No one has ever claimed that Trump follows any dictate of the Holy Book!
You need to wake up, he has the Christian right-wing solidly behind him along with the KKK, the neo-Nazis's and a hodge podge of white supremacist groups----a legion of hate!!
uwot
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by uwot »

seeds wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:39 pm...you're simply not the type of hardcore atheist (i.e., the third option in your list) to which my comments are directed.

Again, if you honestly believe that there is no higher intelligence involved in the creation of the universe...
That would be the position of the hardcore atheist/anti-theist that you have just acknowledged I am not.
seeds wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:39 pm...then don't be wishy-washy in your answer.
No need for that, seeds.
seeds wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:39 pmJust tell me what you think the alternative might be?
I don't know if you have seen the latest iteration of my book, but there is a whole section devoted to how the material involved in the big bang becomes fundamental particles, how they make atoms, primarily hydrogen and helium. It goes on to explain how gravity forms those gases into stars, and how stellar nucleosynthesis forms heavier elements, critically carbon and oxygen, which together with primordial hydrogen are essential to life as we know it. From the book:

Hydrogen and carbon join to make a range of hydrocarbons. These include oil, petrol and various plastics. Hydrogen and oxygen make water among other things. Carbon and oxygen combine in lots of ways, most commonly as the gasses carbon monoxide, and carbon dioxide. All three get together to make carbohydrates, sugar and alcohol. There is so much variety that hydrogen, carbon and oxygen account for 98% of the atoms in the human body, and keep us warm, fed and happy.
https://popgunsbubblesandmotorbikes.blo ... -guns.html
Most of that is mainstream, demonstrable science. We can see the reactions at the nuclear and chemical level, so we do know how a universe very like our own can be generated from primordial matter without any intervention from a higher intelligence. Now, there may be any number of reasons you may choose to believe that such miraculous matter could only have been created by a higher intelligence, but none of them have anything to do with evidence.
commonsense
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by commonsense »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:47 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:14 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:46 pm Any bible Trumpers here, we are having a hate in on Friday 1 o'clock, be there or be square!!
Bible Trumper is an oxymoron. No one has ever claimed that Trump follows any dictate of the Holy Book!
You need to wake up, he has the Christian right-wing solidly behind him along with the KKK, the neo-Nazis's and a hodge podge of white supremacist groups----a legion of hate!!
Right, but he himself is the farthest thing from a bible there can be. Yet Christian Trumpers adore him anyway! Also ironic: those haters believe they are uber Christians.
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by popeye1945 »

commonsense wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:02 am
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:47 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:14 pm

Bible Trumper is an oxymoron. No one has ever claimed that Trump follows any dictate of the Holy Book!
You need to wake up, he has the Christian right-wing solidly behind him along with the KKK, the neo-Nazis's and a hodge podge of white supremacist groups----a legion of hate!!
Right, but he himself is the farthest thing from a bible there can be. Yet Christian Trumpers adore him anyway! Also ironic: those haters believe they are uber Christians.
commonsense,
He says he is a Christian and that is all those dumb shit Republican need, it's not like they have ever been in touch with reality before Trump.
commonsense
Posts: 5115
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by commonsense »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:56 am
commonsense wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:02 am
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:47 pm

You need to wake up, he has the Christian right-wing solidly behind him along with the KKK, the neo-Nazis's and a hodge podge of white supremacist groups----a legion of hate!!
Right, but he himself is the farthest thing from a bible there can be. Yet Christian Trumpers adore him anyway! Also ironic: those haters believe they are uber Christians.
commonsense,
He says he is a Christian and that is all those dumb shit Republican need, it's not like they have ever been in touch with reality before Trump.
Yes, of course.
bobmax
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by bobmax »

What really matters is the existence of a God?

What does it matter whether there is God or not?

Isn't it the Good that really matters?

Isn't everything, absolutely everything, based on the fact that the Good is?

Then there is actually no concrete opposition between theists and atheists.
But among those who believe that the Good is the absolute value. And who does not believe it.

Because there can be atheists who believe in the Good or not, as well as theists.
In fact, is atheism a choice for evil? And has the theist really married the good?
Isn't all this absurd?

Faith in God is often instrumental. Because God is considered a means to one's own utility.
And vice versa, the denial of God is also an excuse to feel free to do what we want, even evil.

If we mean Good by God.
Then we can well say that God needs us.
The Good (God) asks the only-begotten son to make the Good be, that is, that God be.
popeye1945
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by popeye1945 »

bobmax wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:34 pm What really matters is the existence of a God?

What does it matter whether there is God or not?

Isn't it the Good that really matters?

Isn't everything, absolutely everything, based on the fact that the Good is?

Then there is actually no concrete opposition between theists and atheists.
But among those who believe that the Good is the absolute value. And who does not believe it.

Because there can be atheists who believe in the Good or not, as well as theists.
In fact, is atheism a choice for evil? And has the theist really married the good?
Isn't all this absurd?

Faith in God is often instrumental. Because God is considered a means to one's own utility.
And vice versa, the denial of God is also an excuse to feel free to do what we want, even evil.

If we mean Good by God.
Then we can well say that God needs us.
The Good (God) asks the only-begotten son to make the Good be, that is, that God be.
Bobmax,
Sounds like a lot of babble, you trying to convince yourself that faith is reasonable. Belief without evidence can never be reasonable. By definition, reason doesn't enter into it. Fatih is a license to forgo reason.
commonsense
Posts: 5115
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by commonsense »

bobmax wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:34 pm What really matters is the existence of a God?

What does it matter whether there is God or not?

Isn't it the Good that really matters?

Isn't everything, absolutely everything, based on the fact that the Good is?

Then there is actually no concrete opposition between theists and atheists.
But among those who believe that the Good is the absolute value. And who does not believe it.

Because there can be atheists who believe in the Good or not, as well as theists.
In fact, is atheism a choice for evil? And has the theist really married the good?
Isn't all this absurd?

Faith in God is often instrumental. Because God is considered a means to one's own utility.
And vice versa, the denial of God is also an excuse to feel free to do what we want, even evil.

If we mean Good by God.
Then we can well say that God needs us.
The Good (God) asks the only-begotten son to make the Good be, that is, that God be.
Like seeds, you seem to be trying to say that an atheist is the same as a theist.
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