What is an Atheist?

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Age
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by Age »

bobmax wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:10 pm In my opinion there are two different basic types of atheism.

There is the atheism of those who do not believe in the existence of the entity God.
If one does NOT believe in the existence of the entity God, then what do they BELIEVE IN?
bobmax wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:10 pm And there is instead the atheism of those who know that the entity God cannot exist (he does not believe, he knows), but also does not believe that the Good is.

Two equally different believers correspond to these two different atheisms.

That is, the believer in the entity God. And the believer in the Good.

The first believing / atheist couple, who believe / do not believe in the entity God, is still a naive thought.
A game for children, who still do not have full awareness of themselves.
Do you YET have FULL AWARENESS of "yourself?"

If yes, then what IS the proper AND correct answer to the question, 'Who am 'I'?'
bobmax wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:10 pm God is meant as something that can be useful for oneself.
The believer's love of God is often self-serving.
A utility that the non-believer refuses.

Conversely, whether or not to believe in the Good has other implications.
Because it is no longer a question of utility.

The believer loves God (the Good) only because God.
While the atheist realizes that this love is an illusion.

This is authentic atheism, also called mystical atheism.

I think mystical atheism is a necessary step.
Because authentic faith is faith in Nothingness. God = Good = Nothing

In fact, faith must be extinguished in Being.
Age
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:45 pm
attofishpi wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:15 pm There U go Poppy - some fodder above.
Atheists don't like to be identified as such, except when they're in attack mode.

In defensive mode, they retreat into the multiple identities I listed earlier, and equivocate among them so you can't pin them down.

But as soon as you stop pressing them to state their position, they're going to leap back out with total confidence that they know that God can't possibly exist, and go to mockery.

That's how they operate. They're just not honest, because they sense -- and fear -- that their Atheism is not rationally defensible. So they retreat by squirting ink, like squids.
So, what, EXACTLY, is YOUR supposed 'rational defense' for YOUR CLAIM that God is the male gendered "he"?

In fact do you have absolutely ANY 'rational defense' for YOUR BELIEVE that God exists, ABSOLUTELY?

If yes, then WILL you SHARE 'it' here?

If no, then WHY NOT?
Age
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by Age »

uwot wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:00 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:45 pmAtheists don't like to be identified as such, except when they're in attack mode.

In defensive mode, they retreat into the multiple identities I listed earlier, and equivocate among them so you can't pin them down.
It's easy, you dumb fuck: atheists such as yours truly do not believe in any god.
SO, as ALREADY POINTED OUT and SHOWN an "atheist" is just ANOTHER BELIEVER, but ONLY TO THE COUNTER.

'you', "athiests" AND "theists", are BOTH the SAME in this regard. BOTH BELIEVING in 'things' that you have absolutely NO ACTUAL PROOF for, YET, 'you' spent MUCH TIME 'trying to' JUSTIFY and DEFEND YOUR POSITIONS and BELIEFS.
uwot wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:00 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:45 pmBut as soon as you stop pressing them to state their position, they're going to leap back out with total confidence that they know that God can't possibly exist, and go to mockery.
No Mr Can, I'm sticking with 'I don't believe in gods'.
What does, "I don't believe in gods", even ACTUALLY MEAN?

Is 'gods' DIFFERENT from 'Gods'?

If yes, then HOW, EXACTLY?

And when you say you do NOT believe IN 'gods', what, EXACTLY, are you NOT BELIEVING IN?
uwot wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:00 pm The mockery is aimed squarely at you, because you are a fucking idiot.
Is this 'arguing' in or from a MATURE perspective?

Is this how 'philosophical discussions' are meant to proceed?
uwot wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:00 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:45 pmThat's how they operate. They're just not honest, because they sense -- and fear -- that their Atheism is not rationally defensible.
Mr Can, I can defend 'I don't believe in gods' all day long.
GREAT. Let us SEE how you DEFEND what the word 'gods' MEANS or REFERS TO, EXACTLY, and then SHOW us how you DEFEND that you do NOT believe IN that 'thing' or 'things'.

And, you can go on and on ALL day long, if you REALLY BELIEVE you can.
uwot wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:00 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:45 pmSo they retreat by squirting ink, like squids.
Well aren't you the poet, Mr Can?
The way you are coming across here "uwot" SOUNDS, or LOOKS, EXACTLY LIKE what "immanuel can" has been referring to here.

WHY do you seem so DEFENSIVE of what you are 'trying to' CLAIM that you are NOT EVEN?
Age
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:46 pm
attofishpi wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:49 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:45 pm
Atheists don't like to be identified as such, except when they're in attack mode.

In defensive mode, they retreat into the multiple identities I listed earlier, and equivocate among them so you can't pin them down.

But as soon as you stop pressing them to state their position, they're going to leap back out with total confidence that they know that God can't possibly exist, and go to mockery.

That's how they operate. They're just not honest, because they sense -- and fear -- that their Atheism is not rationally defensible. So they retreat by squirting ink, like squids.
IC - all above is your bigotry,
No. It's observable fact. You can see it for yourself, if you want to look.
Are you 'TRYING TO' suggest here "immanuel can" that 'you' are NOT one of the MOST BIGOTED ones in this forum?
uwot
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by uwot »

Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:33 amWhat ALL of these people are Truly UNAWARE of is that it IS the EXACT SAME three words WHY ALL of these "religious" AND "scientific" people have in common and SHARE is the EXACT SAME 'position' that the Universe BEGAN.
lol
Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:33 amBEGAN or CREATED by WHO or by WHAT is the ONLY DIFFERENCE here between these peoples.
lol
Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:33 amAnd MANY MILLENNIA has been SPENT, or WASTED, on 'TRYING TO' justify that 'position, of faith', that the Universe BEGAN.
lol
uwot
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by uwot »

Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:58 amSO, as ALREADY POINTED OUT and SHOWN an "atheist" is just ANOTHER BELIEVER, but ONLY TO THE COUNTER.
lol
Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:58 am'you', "athiests" AND "theists", are BOTH the SAME in this regard. BOTH BELIEVING in 'things' that you have absolutely NO ACTUAL PROOF for, YET, 'you' spent MUCH TIME 'trying to' JUSTIFY and DEFEND YOUR POSITIONS and BELIEFS.
lol
Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:58 amWhat does, "I don't believe in gods", even ACTUALLY MEAN?
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Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:58 amIs 'gods' DIFFERENT from 'Gods'?
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Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:58 amIf yes, then HOW, EXACTLY?
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Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:58 amAnd when you say you do NOT believe IN 'gods', what, EXACTLY, are you NOT BELIEVING IN?
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Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:58 amIs this 'arguing' in or from a MATURE perspective?
lol
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Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:58 amIs this how 'philosophical discussions' are meant to proceed?
lol
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Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:58 amGREAT. Let us SEE how you DEFEND what the word 'gods' MEANS or REFERS TO, EXACTLY, and then SHOW us how you DEFEND that you do NOT believe IN that 'thing' or 'things'.
lol
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Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:58 amAnd, you can go on and on ALL day long, if you REALLY BELIEVE you can.
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Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:58 amThe way you are coming across here "uwot" SOUNDS, or LOOKS, EXACTLY LIKE what "immanuel can" has been referring to here.
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Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:58 amWHY do you seem so DEFENSIVE of what you are 'trying to' CLAIM that you are NOT EVEN?
lol
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Age
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:31 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:45 pm
attofishpi wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:15 pm There U go Poppy - some fodder above.
Atheists don't like to be identified as such, except when they're in attack mode.

In defensive mode, they retreat into the multiple identities I listed earlier, and equivocate among them so you can't pin them down.

But as soon as you stop pressing them to state their position, they're going to leap back out with total confidence that they know that God can't possibly exist, and go to mockery.

That's how they operate. They're just not honest, because they sense -- and fear -- that their Atheism is not rationally defensible. So they retreat by squirting ink, like squids.
All beliefs exist to be defended, else what's the point in a belief.
VERY GOOD CLARIFYING QUESTION here "dontaskme".

And let us SEE how MANY of 'you', BELIEVERS, even attempt to answer this QUESTION OPENLY and Honestly.

Maybe when I ASK, 'WHY BELIEVE (in) absolutely ANY thing?' 'you', BELIEVERS, could respond by informing me or us, because then we would NOT have absolutely ANY thing to DEFEND.

Which I would then ASK, and QUESTION, WHY do you even WANT, or feel the NEED, to DEFEND ANY thing?
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:31 am No person can know their maker,
And what are you basing this BELIEF on, EXACTLY?

I KNOW people who KNOW their so-called 'maker'.
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:31 am for one good reason, go figure.
If 'you'' want 'us' to 'go figure', would you FIRST like to EXPLAIN what the so-called "one good reason" IS EXACTLY, WHY 'you', and supposedly EVERY OTHER person can NOT know 'their maker'?
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:31 am Now, a person can be aware of itself, yes this is self-evident, and there is no need for a belief in that knowing...but this self-awareness has no knowledge of it's origin, in the sense it has been created.
But one NEVER HAS TO be consciously AWARE at its creation to KNOW that it WAS CREATED.

The KNOWLEDGE that EVERY human being WAS CREATED is some thing that IS IRREFUTABLE, ANYWAY.
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:31 am That belief that it has been created can never be known for sure, as the believed created one has never known or seen it's creator...
There are SO MANY INCONSISTENCIES, FALLACIES, and CONTRADICTIONS here, just in this VERY LITTLE sentence and CLAIM that I could NOT even be bothered SHOWING and POINTING them ALL OUT. Unless, OF COURSE, some one is INTERESTED in SEEING them.
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:31 am The point is..no one can know their creator, and certainly for sure can never see it.
Although it is the CONTRARY, which is ACTUALLY True, WHY is this, SUPPOSEDLY, 'the point' here, when this thread is about, 'What is an "atheist"?'
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:31 am So we are all in the same one quandary about the notion of a creator God...including you.
Talk about thinking or BELIEVE that, "Because I SEE 'things' this way, then absolutely EVERY one ELSE MUST ALSO".
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:31 am And just because you do not attack others for questioning your own belief, does not make you a saint....because you yourself if backed into a corner where your life was on the line would react like everyone else and defend yourself in the most undignified way.

Also, are you not also guilty of mockery when you lead the unbelievers to quotes that condemn them to places called eternal hell fire?
But then you'll even defend yourself from having done that by saying God informs this, not me. And you will say that because in reality you simply do NOT KNOW...so passing the knower buck onto something else is just so easy for you, save you having to think real hard about it...save you having to admit that what you know, will always be coming from a self bias personal conclusion...and not from some divine intervention.

Heck, you might even put me on your ignore list, save you having to face the actual truth...isn't that just a form of passive aggressiveness against anyone who dare to question what you personally believe?

I mean if you are so certain your belief is the only belief worth of having...then what's to stop other people from having the same sense of entitlement from their own self-bias conclusions?


Intelligent people just admit they do not know...and leave the rest to belief...which we all have, even the non-believer has a belief...it's like beliefs all the way down...that's all...


.
popeye1945
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by popeye1945 »

Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:21 am
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:28 am Atto,

To believe, to be sure, without evidence is irrational. To state certainty without the ability to know is a logical fallacy.
Yet here you are committing the exact same logical fallacy.
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:28 am The only proper position is a statement of mystery-------- I don't know!!!
If one does NOT YET KNOW, then ONLY THEN that is the proper AND correct position.
Just for information I ask a LOT of CLARIFYING QUESITONS, just to SEE WHEN, and IF, people are Honest and do DISCLOSE, 'I do NOT (YET) know'.
You need to read the posts more carefully, I stated that both the believer and the atheist both stating certainty are committing the same logical fallacy.
Age
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by Age »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:06 am
Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:21 am
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:28 am Atto,

To believe, to be sure, without evidence is irrational. To state certainty without the ability to know is a logical fallacy.
Yet here you are committing the exact same logical fallacy.
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:28 am The only proper position is a statement of mystery-------- I don't know!!!
If one does NOT YET KNOW, then ONLY THEN that is the proper AND correct position.
Just for information I ask a LOT of CLARIFYING QUESITONS, just to SEE WHEN, and IF, people are Honest and do DISCLOSE, 'I do NOT (YET) know'.
You need to read the posts more carefully, I stated that both the believer and the atheist both stating certainty are committing the same logical fallacy.
This is what I read, and UNDERSTOOD. You seem to have just MISSED the POINT that I was MAKING. Which I WILL EXPRESS and EXPLAIN IF ANY one is interested in IT.

Anyway, are you AWARE that the "atheist" is A BELIEVER, ALSO?

Oh, and by the way, the reason WHY BOTH the so-called "atheist" AND "theist" do NOT YET KNOW what IS ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE True here, and thus WHY there is STILL SOME 'mystery' here to BOTH of "them" is BECAUSE of BOTH of THEIR BELIEFS.
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by Dontaskme »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:06 am
... both the believer and the atheist both stating certainty are committing the same logical fallacy.
That's what you get when you dare to look at your face. The face you cannot see until you look at a mirror.

IC refuses to accept what is always his own projected mirror image ..then has the audacity to blame other people for attacking him, I mean how would he know they are attacking him...if he's never looked at the mirror...lol

IC is just the joke that keeps on giving. :D lol

That's why mummy is here, to wipe the egg off his face, and he hates me doing it, because he hates not knowing it's presence. He hates the idea that only a mirror can inform him of his knowledge...and that without it, he is absolutely nothing, nothing at all.
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by popeye1945 »

Age wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:20 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:06 am
Age wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:21 am

Yet here you are committing the exact same logical fallacy.


If one does NOT YET KNOW, then ONLY THEN that is the proper AND correct position.
Just for information I ask a LOT of CLARIFYING QUESITONS, just to SEE WHEN, and IF, people are Honest and do DISCLOSE, 'I do NOT (YET) know'.
You need to read the posts more carefully, I stated that both the believer and the atheist both stating certainty are committing the same logical fallacy.
This is what I read, and UNDERSTOOD. You seem to have just MISSED the POINT that I was MAKING. Which I WILL EXPRESS and EXPLAIN IF ANY one is interested in IT. Anyway, are you AWARE that the "atheist" is A BELIEVER, ALSO?

Oh, and by the way, the reason WHY BOTH the so-called "atheist" AND "theist" do NOT YET KNOW what IS ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE True here, and thus
WHY there is STILL SOME 'mystery' here to BOTH of "them" is BECAUSE of BOTH of THEIR BELIEFS.
Excellent points, but I did say they were both guilty of the same logical fallacy, thus yes, they are both believers. The agnostic however is logical in admitting the mystery --- the I don't know.
Age
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by Age »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:03 am
Age wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:20 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:06 am
You need to read the posts more carefully, I stated that both the believer and the atheist both stating certainty are committing the same logical fallacy.
This is what I read, and UNDERSTOOD. You seem to have just MISSED the POINT that I was MAKING. Which I WILL EXPRESS and EXPLAIN IF ANY one is interested in IT. Anyway, are you AWARE that the "atheist" is A BELIEVER, ALSO?

Oh, and by the way, the reason WHY BOTH the so-called "atheist" AND "theist" do NOT YET KNOW what IS ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE True here, and thus
WHY there is STILL SOME 'mystery' here to BOTH of "them" is BECAUSE of BOTH of THEIR BELIEFS.
Excellent points, but I did say they were both guilty of the same logical fallacy, thus yes, they are both believers. The agnostic however is logical in admitting the mystery --- the I don't know.
But the 'mystery' is USUALLY only one's OWN 'logical fallacy' ANYWAY. And, AGAIN, based on ones OWN BELIEF.

Which, by the way, WAS and STILL IS the POINT that WAS and STILL IS being MISSED here, and which I WILL STILL EXPRESS and EXPLAIN IF ANY one is interested in IT.
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by popeye1945 »

Apparnt reality is only individual in as sense there is a commonality across species but in another sense closer to your own point Schopenhaure stated, "When an individuals eyes close in death, a world ceases to be."
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Dontaskme
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by Dontaskme »

Age wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:14 am
But the 'mystery' is USUALLY only one's OWN 'logical fallacy' ANYWAY. And, AGAIN, based on ones OWN BELIEF.

Which, by the way, WAS and STILL IS the POINT that WAS and STILL IS being MISSED here, and which I WILL STILL EXPRESS and EXPLAIN IF ANY one is interested in IT.
'Life' is a mystery just as 'Death' is a mystery.

Only in this artificial conception is the word 'mystery' known.

The concept known as 'mystery' is not a direct experience. If it was, the word 'mystery' would no longer be a 'mystery'
commonsense
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by commonsense »

The “truest” thing that’s been said in this thread is that both the atheist and the theist believe they know something that only the agnostic can tell them is unknowable. Hats off to Age and pop for both expressing this in so many words at one time or another in the thread.
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