What is an Atheist?

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bobmax
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by bobmax »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:04 pm Bobmax,
Sounds like a lot of babble, you trying to convince yourself that faith is reasonable. Belief without evidence can never be reasonable. By definition, reason doesn't enter into it. Fatih is a license to forgo reason.
Yet with your words you show that you have great faith.

It is almost impossible to live, to live for real, without faith.

Here you show your faith in reason, for example.

Faith is a necessary support in the search for Truth.

Until its extinction.
Faith is extinguished in Being.

In fact Meister Eckhart says "Whoever believes is not yet a child of God"
bobmax
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by bobmax »

commonsense wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:36 pm
bobmax wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:34 pm What really matters is the existence of a God?

What does it matter whether there is God or not?

Isn't it the Good that really matters?

Isn't everything, absolutely everything, based on the fact that the Good is?

Then there is actually no concrete opposition between theists and atheists.
But among those who believe that the Good is the absolute value. And who does not believe it.

Because there can be atheists who believe in the Good or not, as well as theists.
In fact, is atheism a choice for evil? And has the theist really married the good?
Isn't all this absurd?

Faith in God is often instrumental. Because God is considered a means to one's own utility.
And vice versa, the denial of God is also an excuse to feel free to do what we want, even evil.

If we mean Good by God.
Then we can well say that God needs us.
The Good (God) asks the only-begotten son to make the Good be, that is, that God be.
Like seeds, you seem to be trying to say that an atheist is the same as a theist.
There is no major difference.

The difference is between those who have faith in the Truth and those who do not have this faith.

Just see people.
Among those who have faith in the Truth there is much more that unites than what divides.
Even if one is theist and the other is an atheist.
seeds
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by seeds »

_______

"...What is an Atheist?..."

There's is no denying the fact that most atheists are very intelligent (which is why they became atheists in the first place).

However, according to this (perhaps over-used) quote from one of the founding fathers of quantum physics...
“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.” - Werner Heisenberg
In which case, an atheist (especially a hardcore atheist) is someone who simply hasn't quite made it to the bottom of the glass yet.
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seeds
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by seeds »

bobmax wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:34 pm ...What does it matter whether there is God or not?...
It matters because if there is no higher (transcendent) context of reality where consciousness can continue on and evolve into higher levels of being, indeed into a level of being where one eventually becomes capable of creating a universe out of the living fabric of one's own mind (as our Creator has allegedly done),...

...then our existence has no ultimate and eternal purpose, and thus all humans must become existential nihilists.

And what existential nihilism basically means is that greedy, deceitful, power-hungry despots like Donald Trump are justified in their pursuit of ill-gotten wealth and control over others.

And that's because if the few fleeting moments we spend on this planet truly represents all there is to life, then why shouldn't the strong try to milk-it for everything they can get?
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popeye1945
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by popeye1945 »

If you two make a distinction within yourselves as to what you have faith in, for example, if you have faith in an anthropomorphic god then you have to be desperate to kick loose of reality. Personally, I don't believe that deserves any respect whatsoever. If you simply have faith that you are part of something larger than yourselves then that is a reasonable assumption. Atheists don't necessarily lack spirituality it just means they haven't time for childish anthropomorphic daddy gods. Besides already what we know of the world and the cosmos is already too sublime for these extremely limited god creations of our ignorant past. As far as morality goes I do not believe that morality should be based upon anything but our common biology. To make the foundation of morality supernatural and abstract is just in this day and age nonsense, absurd, head up one's ass faith. Ask me what I really think-------lol!!!
bobmax
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by bobmax »

seeds wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:00 pm
bobmax wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:34 pm ...What does it matter whether there is God or not?...
It matters because if there is no higher (transcendent) context of reality where consciousness can continue on and evolve into higher levels of being, indeed into a level of being where one eventually becomes capable of creating a universe out of the living fabric of one's own mind (as our Creator has allegedly done),...

...then our existence has no ultimate and eternal purpose, and thus all humans must become existential nihilists.

And what existential nihilism basically means is that greedy, deceitful, power-hungry despots like Donald Trump are justified in their pursuit of ill-gotten wealth and control over others.

And that's because if the few fleeting moments we spend on this planet truly represents all there is to life, then why shouldn't the strong try to milk-it for everything they can get?
_______
I agree with you regarding the nihilistic threat.

But now it is no longer possible to contrast the existence of God with nihilism.
Because nihilistic faith is stronger than faith in a higher entity.

In fact, even the nihilist believes.
And he believes that the reality is this: multiple and becoming.

To overcome nihilism it is therefore necessary to face it on its own ground.
By questioning what he believes.

And what he believes in is the multiple and its becoming. Where each thing is distinct from the other and continually becomes.

Here, it is precisely these certainties that must be questioned.

It is not easy, perhaps because it is extremely simple.

It is necessary to perceive the One.

God does not exist, because only God is.
bobmax
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by bobmax »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:58 pm If you two make a distinction within yourselves as to what you have faith in, for example, if you have faith in an anthropomorphic god then you have to be desperate to kick loose of reality. Personally, I don't believe that deserves any respect whatsoever. If you simply have faith that you are part of something larger than yourselves then that is a reasonable assumption. Atheists don't necessarily lack spirituality it just means they haven't time for childish anthropomorphic daddy gods. Besides already what we know of the world and the cosmos is already too sublime for these extremely limited god creations of our ignorant past. As far as morality goes I do not believe that morality should be based upon anything but our common biology. To make the foundation of morality supernatural and abstract is just in this day and age nonsense, absurd, head up one's ass faith. Ask me what I really think-------lol!!!
Whenever faith becomes belief in something, it inevitably becomes superstition.

The only true faith is faith in the Truth. Truth never defined, which appears as nothing.

Because the Truth requires you, and only you, each time to decide what is true.

In the name of what?
Of yourself, of who you really are.

The search for Truth is the search for ourselves, to become what we are.
To be or not to be
popeye1945
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by popeye1945 »

bobmax wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:22 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:58 pm If you two make a distinction within yourselves as to what you have faith in, for example, if you have faith in an anthropomorphic god then you have to be desperate to kick loose of reality. Personally, I don't believe that deserves any respect whatsoever. If you simply have faith that you are part of something larger than yourselves then that is a reasonable assumption. Atheists don't necessarily lack spirituality it just means they haven't time for childish anthropomorphic daddy gods. Besides already what we know of the world and the cosmos is already too sublime for these extremely limited god creations of our ignorant past. As far as morality goes I do not believe that morality should be based upon anything but our common biology. To make the foundation of morality supernatural and abstract is just in this day and age nonsense, absurd, head up one's ass faith. Ask me what I really think-------lol!!!
Whenever faith becomes belief in something, it inevitably becomes superstition.
The only true faith is faith in the Truth. Truth never defined, which appears as nothing.
Because the Truth requires you, and only you, each time to decide what is true.
In the name of what?
Of yourself, of who you really are.
The search for Truth is the search for ourselves, to become what we are.
To be or not to be
bobmax,

I remember a statement by the mythologist the late Joseph Campbell, "Mythology is the other man's religion", of course here it infers that mythology itself is false, where that isn't necessarily the case, mythology was meant at times simply to be an orientation in a confusing world.

Truth is experience, that is not to say it is infalliable but one needs check it against physical reality. "To the individual experience is truth, to the group truth is agreement." Faith can only be defined as belief without experience without evidence, faith is nothing, and on the border of mental illness.
Overall, we see things much the same way, to be one's self one needs trust one's own experience.
commonsense
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by commonsense »

seeds wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:59 pm _______

"...What is an Atheist?..."

There's is no denying the fact that most atheists are very intelligent (which is why they became atheists in the first place).

However, according to this (perhaps over-used) quote from one of the founding fathers of quantum physics...
“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.” - Werner Heisenberg
In which case, an atheist (especially a hardcore atheist) is someone who simply hasn't quite made it to the bottom of the glass yet.
_______
I’m not an atheist, but I object nonetheless to a quote that portrays God as the dregs of a liquid or an ooze. The quote does nothing to justify a belief in the Existence of God. It only asserts that God exists as a precipitate.
commonsense
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by commonsense »

bobmax wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:47 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:04 pm Bobmax,
Sounds like a lot of babble, you trying to convince yourself that faith is reasonable. Belief without evidence can never be reasonable. By definition, reason doesn't enter into it. Fatih is a license to forgo reason.
Yet with your words you show that you have great faith.

It is almost impossible to live, to live for real, without faith.

Here you show your faith in reason, for example.

Faith is a necessary support in the search for Truth.

Until its extinction.
Faith is extinguished in Being.

In fact Meister Eckhart says "Whoever believes is not yet a child of God"
Truth is justifiable, justified, reproducible and evidential, to say a few of its qualities, all of which precede any belief in it. Faith is belief without any necessity of those qualities. Reason requires those qualities. To have faith in reason is to have reason to believe in reason. Bob’s words are reasonable; they don’t show faith.
bobmax
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by bobmax »

commonsense wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:45 am Truth is justifiable, justified, reproducible and evidential, to say a few of its qualities, all of which precede any belief in it. Faith is belief without any necessity of those qualities. Reason requires those qualities. To have faith in reason is to have reason to believe in reason. Bob’s words are reasonable; they don’t show faith.
But what is it that allows us to justify, prove, reproduce, if not what is considered true regardless?

Isn't reasonableness itself based on what "transcends" reason itself?

That is, on something that allows thought but is not justified by thought itself?
These are "truths" taken for granted, because if questioned, the thought could not continue.

Like the identity principle, for example.
A = A
So banal, yet ... isn't it a negation?
A is not B, C, D ... is not everything is not A.

But does the Truth really deny anything else?
Isn't this absurd denial?
Truth is negation of negation.

So that A = A is only a provisional truth, which is taken for granted as an act of faith.
Necessary to live, and therefore believed to be true.
But isn't this "believing" in turn based on faith in inaccessible Truth?
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attofishpi
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by attofishpi »

I just bought a card that I may use for my cousin's 55th Wedding Anniversary, on the front it had this wisdom that pretty much sums up the faith we Christians have for what Christ went through to demand our respect for LOVE.

Love recognises no barriers, it jumps hurdles, leaps fences, penetrates walls to arrive at its destination full of hope.

Maya Ange...
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Dontaskme
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by Dontaskme »

bobmax wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:12 pm
I agree with you regarding the nihilistic threat.

But now it is no longer possible to contrast the existence of God with nihilism.
Because nihilistic faith is stronger than faith in a higher entity.

In fact, even the nihilist believes.
And he believes that the reality is this: multiple and becoming.

To overcome nihilism it is therefore necessary to face it on its own ground.
By questioning what he believes.

And what he believes in is the multiple and its becoming. Where each thing is distinct from the other and continually becomes.

Here, it is precisely these certainties that must be questioned.

It is not easy, perhaps because it is extremely simple.

It is necessary to perceive the One.

God does not exist, because only God is.
Or NO conceptual thing exists, because only conceptual things are known to exist. And a concept cannot know it exists?

Here, there is never any mention of 'a believer' or ' a knower' or 'a thinker' or 'a conceiver' or 'a projector' ... all these things mentioned are known concepts that cannot know they exist.


Concepts are imposed projections of what is fundamentally this immediate unknowable reality.

Nihilism is wildy misunderstood. Nihilism in it's only sensible form is the rejection of human/ mental projection.

A realist sees that both dualism and materialism fail to deliver what is necessary for a logical view of reality.
Reality is not a human/mental projection, it only appears to be. Nihilism is focused on reality as it is, not how it is perceived to be via the mental mechanism known as projection. Mind does appear to be the projection screen upon which concepts are known as they are projected onto the screen.
But the mind is just another concept which can never know it exists.

Reality as it is, is not an illusion, but it is when reality becomes conceptually known, then it becomes a reality that is an artificially imposed projection, which is an illusion.




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bobmax
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by bobmax »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:37 am Or NO conceptual thing exists, because only conceptual things are known to exist. And a concept cannot know it exists?

Here, there is never any mention of 'a believer' or ' a knower' or 'a thinker' or 'a conceiver' or 'a projector' ... all these things mentioned are known concepts that cannot know they exist.


Concepts are imposed projections of what is fundamentally this immediate unknowable reality.

Nihilism is wildy misunderstood. Nihilism in it's only sensible form is the rejection of human/ mental projection.

A realist sees that both dualism and materialism fail to deliver what is necessary for a logical view of reality.
Reality is not a human/mental projection, it only appears to be. Nihilism is focused on reality as it is, not how it is perceived to be via the mental mechanism known as projection. Mind does appear to be the projection screen upon which concepts are known as they are projected onto the screen.
But the mind is just another concept which can never know it exists.

Reality as it is, is not an illusion, but it is when reality becomes conceptually known, then it becomes a reality that is an artificially imposed projection, which is an illusion.
Is not nihilism itself a concept?

Even supposing that nihilism is the only correct concept, what is reality as it is?

But if you answer this question, isn't this your own answer another concept?
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Dontaskme
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Re: What is an Atheist?

Post by Dontaskme »

bobmax wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:12 am
Is not nihilism itself a concept?
Any thing known is a concept, but that which is known as a concept is an illusion, it's an imagined imposition, a projection upon the blank screen of consciousness which is not an illusion, because consciousness and the contents of consciousness are the same reality....it's when reality is being described, is it an artificial overlay projected onto it. No 'thing' knows this. It's just KNOWN by the only knowing there is which is empty consciousness.
bobmax wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:12 amEven supposing that nihilism is the only correct concept, what is reality as it is?

But if you answer this question, isn't this your own answer another concept?

There are only concepts known, known by no one, because ''things'' cannot know they are KNOWN. An aware consciousness does not exist as an object of it's own knowing. Knowledge, aka conceptual objects are a projection only within what is always this fundamental empty awareness - as it is.

The universe literally has no mind or brain.



The question ''What is reality as it is'' ? can be answered like this ..Zen poem here >

The wild geese do not intend to cast their reflection; The water has no mind to retain their image.

When a mountain stream flows out of a spring beside the road, and a thirsty traveler comes along and drinks deeply, the traveler is welcome. But the mountain stream is not waiting with the intention of refreshing thirsty travelers; it is just bubbling forth, and the travelers are always welcome to help themselves.



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