Can an atheist seek Wisdom?

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gaffo
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Re: Can an atheist seek Wisdom?

Post by gaffo »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:13 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:49 am you discriminate against Atheists as persons unable to become Wise because they do not believe in your God.
I discriminate against those that believe in philosophy as atheists - love of wisdom - where they disregard the wisdom of what has been gleamed from the system - the God - over aeons.

So FUCK em and their ridiculous stance. Wisdom ONLY comes from 1st FAITH 2nd KNOWLEDGE
ya, like i said, fuck me, I'm a fool because i'm an Atheist.

born to burn.

you are right in this thread, Atheists are all dogs.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Does an atheist seek Wisdom, Knowledge, or both?

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:56 am Hi Mr Kant, so you think Atheist have the potential to be Wise persons,
"Wise" in what sense?
gaffo
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Re: Does an atheist seek Wisdom, Knowledge, or both?

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:23 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:56 am Hi Mr Kant, so you think Atheist have the potential to be Wise persons,
"Wise" in what sense?
the conventional of course!

lol, whats with the word play?
Dubious
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Re: Can an atheist seek Wisdom?

Post by Dubious »

gaffo wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:00 am
Dubious wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:10 am Let's say they're less constrained if one decides to explore the boundaries. That is, less handicapped by preconceived or revealed paradigms. If one wants to explore the horizon one does so without knowing what's there or what awaits...a type of mental space travel to who knows where!

The ultimate question...whither goest thou? The feeling for which is expressed in sound...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23cLITkT16k
no, Atheists deny God so are good for nothing but Hell!

I should know, i'm an Atheist, and my pride sends me to Hell - FOREVER.

bye, fool me.
Don't worry about it! :lol:

I'm not going there; you're not going there. If there were a hell it would be populated with more theists than atheists in any event! You probably wouldn't meet anybody you actually liked!

Nope, we're ALL headed to the great Nothing from whence we and all things derived from called oblivion. Even Jesus disintegrated into that timeless void just like any dead cat, dog or human.

The only thing that can send you to hell is your imagination which means you must be alive to have one. So if it pleases you to torture yourself before you croak have fun!
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Does an atheist seek Wisdom, Knowledge, or both?

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:45 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:23 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:56 am Hi Mr Kant, so you think Atheist have the potential to be Wise persons,
"Wise" in what sense?
the conventional of course!

lol, whats with the word play?
No "word play." Some people think "wisdom" is about how many facts you know. Some people think it's about how clever you are at solving problems. Some think it's something that education can give you, and some think you can't get it without life experience. Some think you can be "wise" in one area, and not in another, and some people think it means you have to be good at everything...there are a lot of definitions, so it needs pinning down before I know how to answer your question.
gaffo
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Re: Can an atheist seek Wisdom?

Post by gaffo »

Dubious wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:29 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:00 am
Dubious wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:10 am Let's say they're less constrained if one decides to explore the boundaries. That is, less handicapped by preconceived or revealed paradigms. If one wants to explore the horizon one does so without knowing what's there or what awaits...a type of mental space travel to who knows where!

The ultimate question...whither goest thou? The feeling for which is expressed in sound...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23cLITkT16k
no, Atheists deny God so are good for nothing but Hell!

I should know, i'm an Atheist, and my pride sends me to Hell - FOREVER.

bye, fool me.
Don't worry about it! :lol:

I'm not going there; you're not going there. If there were a hell it would be populated with more theists than atheists in any event! You probably wouldn't meet anybody you actually liked!

Nope, we're ALL headed to the great Nothing from whence we and all things derived from called oblivion. Even Jesus disintegrated into that timeless void just like any dead cat, dog or human.

The only thing that can send you to hell is your imagination which means you must be alive to have one. So if it pleases you to torture yourself before you croak have fun!
I thank you for the kind reply Sir.

you may know the nature of the next realm, if so great. I personally do not, nor do i fixate upon. as an Athiest i tend to view there is no afterlife, but i cannot proclaim so since i lack full knowledge, and for the record i hope i am wrong in this count, as well as i hope if there is a god or gods, they are of a nature to not allow eternal damnation in said afterlife (for me any anyone else - incudling full retrobates like Hilter/etc).

just my 2cents, again thanks for civil reply.
gaffo
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Re: Does an atheist seek Wisdom, Knowledge, or both?

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:46 pm
gaffo wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:45 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:23 am
"Wise" in what sense?
the conventional of course!

lol, whats with the word play?
No "word play." Some people think "wisdom" is about how many facts you know. Some people think it's about how clever you are at solving problems. Some think it's something that education can give you, and some think you can't get it without life experience. Some think you can be "wise" in one area, and not in another, and some people think it means you have to be good at everything...there are a lot of definitions, so it needs pinning down before I know how to answer your question.
you speak of knowledge - which has noting to do with wisdom.

there are ignorant illiterate farmers who are either fools or wise.

as there are PHD''s in both camps (fools or wise)

yes, you can be an Einstein in all things of knowledge and still be a utter fool (Edward Teller anyone? - IMO per this person)

knowledge is linked to wisdom as the color blue is to the color red.

they are separate traits and utterly not linked in any way.

imo.

thanks for reply.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Does an atheist seek Wisdom, Knowledge, or both?

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:17 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:46 pm No "word play." Some people think "wisdom" is about how many facts you know. Some people think it's about how clever you are at solving problems. Some think it's something that education can give you, and some think you can't get it without life experience. Some think you can be "wise" in one area, and not in another, and some people think it means you have to be good at everything...there are a lot of definitions, so it needs pinning down before I know how to answer your question.
you speak of knowledge - which has noting to do with wisdom.
I'd agree. I didn't know if you would think that, so I had to ask.
there are ignorant illiterate farmers who are either fools or wise.

as there are PHD''s in both camps (fools or wise)
Absolutely. I've met plenty of both, and my assessment is the same.
thanks for reply.
No problem.
gaffo
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Re: Does an atheist seek Wisdom, Knowledge, or both?

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:37 pm
gaffo wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:17 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:46 pm No "word play." Some people think "wisdom" is about how many facts you know. Some people think it's about how clever you are at solving problems. Some think it's something that education can give you, and some think you can't get it without life experience. Some think you can be "wise" in one area, and not in another, and some people think it means you have to be good at everything...there are a lot of definitions, so it needs pinning down before I know how to answer your question.
you speak of knowledge - which has noting to do with wisdom.
I'd agree. I didn't know if you would think that, so I had to ask.
there are ignorant illiterate farmers who are either fools or wise.

as there are PHD''s in both camps (fools or wise)
Absolutely. I've met plenty of both, and my assessment is the same.
thanks for reply.
No problem.
you are welcome, my views seem the same as yours - just sad your view of humanity as a whole is less than mine, and that (I know you are a Christian - so value the need of Christ for Salvation) you do not see Pagans as humans with the same moral compass percentage as Christians.

ie, per my view, good folks regardless of their Religion/s - as well as bad ones.

i.e the same percentage as found in your Faith.

but you are of your faith as so must validate it and dissagree on this particuler.

thats fine, i've noted your posts and you are a humble person with a mind and heart and ok with agreeing to dissagree mutually.

Your posts are a smart and i welcome conversation with you because of.

peace.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Does an atheist seek Wisdom, Knowledge, or both?

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:58 pm you do not see Pagans as humans with the same moral compass percentage as Christians.
"Moral compass"? I don't recall having introduced that term into the conversation. I think it was about "wisdom," was it not?
Your posts are a smart and i welcome conversation with you because of.
Thanks.
peace.
Same.
gaffo
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Re: Does an atheist seek Wisdom, Knowledge, or both?

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:46 pm
gaffo wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:58 pm you do not see Pagans as humans with the same moral compass percentage as Christians.
"Moral compass"? I don't recall having introduced that term into the conversation. I think it was about "wisdom," was it not?
Your posts are a smart and i welcome conversation with you because of.
Thanks.
peace.
Same.
I was just noting your view of nonchristians lacking morals from prior discussions.

that all.

you view humanity as evil by default (so pagan never recieving the word are more evil and good by thier nature).

I think mankind is more good than bad - from Christian to canibals.

the percentage - as i said many times before with you on this matter - is fixed (i.e. one's character is more core than one's belief (so a canabel of good character is good due to his character not his canabalism/ and a fucking asshole - be he a devout Pope or other Christian - using his faith as club of virtue as a thug does a gun to kill and maim - is a dick! - his Faith in no way made him a better man (instead he used it to serve is low character as in intrument to torment others of and not of his faith).

Thugs are as thus are, religion does not make character. the former is venier, for thugs to use agains others.

I value character, and ingore "faith" (I know of hypocrasy/TV evangelical ASSHOLES - fuck them!).

I'll take a good hearted canibal over a self reichtious christian!
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Does an atheist seek Wisdom, Knowledge, or both?

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:02 pm I was just noting your view of nonchristians lacking morals from prior discussions.
I don't recall having put it that way, either.
you view humanity as evil by default (so pagan never recieving the word are more evil and good by thier nature).
Pagan's a bit different from evil. Everybody's naturally drawn to do evil, as well as prompted by a live conscience to know good. But not everybody's pagan. That's a matter of belief, not morals.
the percentage - as i said many times before with you on this matter - is fixed
Probably right...if God is not taken into account, we'd all be pretty nasty.
I'll take a good hearted canibal over a self reichtious christian!
Well, if they're looking to "self" to be "righteous," then you can be sure they're not Christians.
gaffo
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Re: Does an atheist seek Wisdom, Knowledge, or both?

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:10 pm
gaffo wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:02 pm I was just noting your view of nonchristians lacking morals from prior discussions.
I don't recall having put it that way, either.
that was my take a year ago. maybe i was wrong on my view of your view.

if so welcome clarification on the mater.


you view humanity as evil by default (so pagan never recieving the word are more evil and good by thier nature).
Pagan's a bit different from evil. Everybody's naturally drawn to do evil, as well as prompted by a live conscience to know good. But not everybody's pagan. That's a matter of belief, not morals.[/quote]

no understand of what you say above. I just think your view of man is evil my default.

mine the opposite and is by nature more good than bad, and if all followed their inner voice (conscience) would be good/saints (evil folks ignore/kill thier inner voice).


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:10 pm
the percentage - as i said many times before with you on this matter - is fixed
Probably right...if God is not taken into account, we'd all be pretty nasty.
dissagee fully Sir!!!!

due to you and me having differing views of the nature of man by default (you think its bad, i think it is good).

80/20. good over bad in canbalistic societies - same as in Christian ones.

dick/asshole percentage of 1/5 is the same in both cultures.

imo.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:10 pm
I'll take a good hearted canibal over a self reichtious christian!
Well, if they're looking to "self" to be "righteous," then you can be sure they're not Christians.
I understand your view - per Christian view, and thats ok.

and i agree that to assume "save myself via myself is an egotistical view. I just saying that ones character is more core to human nature than one Religion, and i do think New Guina canibals are as moral as Christians, so that means the moral canibals are not egoists, but instead have a humility per a vision of the world and where they fit in.

but again, here we differ, you have a darker view of man's nature (due to your view of the Fall) than i do.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Does an atheist seek Wisdom, Knowledge, or both?

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:22 pm dissagee fully Sir!!!!

due to you and me having differing views of the nature of man by default (you think its bad, i think it is good).
No, that's not my view. My view is that mankind, was made good but became sinful. So he's not entirely evil, but not good either. And I'm certain the empirical evidence is good for that.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:10 pm
I'll take a good hearted canibal over a self reichtious christian!
Well, if they're looking to "self" to be "righteous," then you can be sure they're not Christians.
I understand your view - per Christian view, and thats ok.

and i agree that to assume "save myself via myself is an egotistical view. [/quote]
That's the vexed question: can man save himself by his efforts. The Christian view is decidedly in favour of the "No." If he could save himself, he would need no salvation.
i do think New Guina canibals are as moral as Christians,
For Christians, this is beside the issue. Christians do not think that moral action produces salvation, or makes anyone intrinsically good. So comparing moralities is futile in this regard...because the correct standard is perfect righteousness, the righteousness of God...in comparison to which we are all moral failures, cannibals and civilized men alike.

In comparison to others, we may look somewhat impressive with our moral efforts. But from the divine perspective, we all look like swimmers who are trying to get from Los Angeles to Brisbane on our own strength, as viewed from the lower atmosphere. The very best of us hardly seems to leave the shore.
gaffo
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Re: Does an atheist seek Wisdom, Knowledge, or both?

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:34 pm
gaffo wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:22 pm
I understand your view - per Christian view, and thats ok.

and i agree that to assume "save myself via myself is an egotistical view.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:34 pm That's the vexed question: can man save himself by his efforts. The Christian view is decidedly in favour of the "No." If he could save himself, he would need no salvation.
I understand the Christian view here. i just do not agree with it.

lol. i think man is good enough to be "Saved" just by his nature as long as he follows his conscience.

in this we have to agree to dissagree.

i'm just a hell bound athiest, born to burn, so ignore my council if you know whats good for you.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:34 pm For Christians, this is beside the issue. Christians do not think that moral action produces salvation, or makes anyone intrinsically good. So comparing moralities is futile in this regard...because the correct standard is perfect righteousness, the righteousness of God...in comparison to which we are all moral failures, cannibals and civilized men alike.
I too understand this Christian view. i just do not agree with it.

I'm not perfect nor is any cannibal, but if he and i try to be more good today than yesterday, for me that is "good enough" to be saved (assuming there is salvation/afterlife/and your God is a Just God).

only a fool strives to be perfect.

per your Religion only your God is perfect, and He grants Salvation per his Grace upon Beleivers.

i understand your religion and view here Sir.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:34 pm In comparison to others, we may look somewhat impressive with our moral efforts. But from the divine perspective, we all look like swimmers who are trying to get from Los Angeles to Brisbane on our own strength, as viewed from the lower atmosphere. The very best of us hardly seems to leave the shore.
understtood, i guess i value the striving - those that at least left the shore - as worthy for doing that much.

thanks for reply Sir.
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