My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

So what's really going on?

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roydop
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by roydop »

Zelebg wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:00 am What if I say a PC becomes conscious the moment you connect it with a monitor and it displays some content. Then I can say, look, there it is its qualia right there on the display, that's what it thinks, that's what it feels. It does not feel like we do in terms of pain and desire, but in terms of geometry of overlapping densities of magnetic and electric fields, however is that supposed to feel.

How can you deny this sentience?
Is a computer program self aware, or aware of anything, in the space between iterations?

In the same way, are you aware of Self between thoughts?

We think that lessening the space between iterations somehow magically creates Self Awareness for a computer. But look at what is happening within your own mind. Is it not so that your mind is progressively decreasing the space between thoughts?

This is the ego trying to make thought Self. No, to find reality and Self, one must delve into the stillness between thoughts.

Or end up falling deeper into delusion.
Ginkgo
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Ginkgo »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:51 am
Ginkgo wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:35 am OK, you have convinced me that you are a philosophical zombie.
OK, great!

So you are rescinding your claim that philosophical zombies are fictitious then?
Ginkgo wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:35 am So, what is it like to be a human with no subjective experience?
Isn't that the leading question of ontology? What sort of answer are you expecting to hear?

This mode of being is all I know and all that I could possibly know. I can't tell you what it's like relative to any other modes of being - it's a question that has no meaningful answer.

Surely you remember me saying this?
Ginkgo wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:55 am You are projecting an ontology. The same error every logocentrist makes.
If that is the only mode of being you know then how do you know you are a philosophical zombie? David Chalmers addresses this very problem when he says that a philosophical zombie doesn't know he is a philosophical zombie, it's the only mode of being he knows. Philosophical zombies think they are human with experiences and feelings.
Skepdick
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Skepdick »

Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:20 am If that is the only mode of being you know then how do you know you are a philosophical zombie?
I don't know! I told you that.

I told you that I am an epistemic zombie. All my knowledge is relativistic.

I didn't claim to be a philosophical zombie, I only claimed that if I was one I wouldn't know it, which is why I asked you this question: What evidence would convince you that I am a philosophical zombie?
Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:20 am David Chalmers addresses this very problem when he says that a philosophical zombie doesn't know he is a philosophical zombie, it's the only mode of being he knows.
David Chalmers is an idiot. Every being's own mode of being is the only mode of being that being knows.

Since I can't in any way compare my mode of being relative to your mode of being, there's not much to be said about other beings' mode of being.

This is the problem of other minds
Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:20 am Philosophical zombies think they are human with experiences and feelings.
So if humans think they are human with experiences and feelings; and philosophical zombies think they are human with experiences and feelings then how do you decide whether you are human or a philosophical zombie?

What is the difference?
Ginkgo
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Ginkgo »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:27 am
Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:20 am If that is the only mode of being you know then how do you know you are a philosophical zombie?
I don't know! I told you that.

I told you that I am an epistemic zombie. All my knowledge is relativistic.

I didn't claim to be a philosophical zombie, I only claimed that if I was one I wouldn't know it, which is why I asked you this question: What evidence would convince you that I am a philosophical zombie?
Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:20 am David Chalmers addresses this very problem when he says that a philosophical zombie doesn't know he is a philosophical zombie, it's the only mode of being he knows.
David Chalmers is an idiot. Every being's own mode of being is the only mode of being that being knows.
Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:20 am Philosophical zombies think they are human with experiences and feelings.
So if humans think they are human with experiences and feelings; and philosophical zombies think they are human with experiences and feelings then how do you decide whether you are human or a philosophical zombie?

What is the difference?

The difference is that human beings exist while philosophical don't.

If you are claiming to be an epistemic zombie then you have experiences. Therefore, you are not really a zombie of any type.
Skepdick
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Skepdick »

Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:41 am The difference is that human beings exist while philosophical don't.
How do you know it's not the other way around? Maybe humans don't exist and philosophical zombies do?

Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:41 am If you are claiming to be an epistemic zombie then you have experiences.
Non-sequitur.

As an epistemic zombie I am claiming that I don't know whether I have experiences or not.

If I knew that I have experiences then I am human.
if I knew that I don't have experiences then I am a philosophical zombie.

I don't know!
Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:41 am Therefore, you are not really a zombie of any type.
Non-sequitur.
Ginkgo
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Ginkgo »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:44 am
Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:41 am The difference is that human beings exist while philosophical don't.
How do you know it's not the other way around? Maybe humans don't exist and philosophical zombies do?

Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:41 am If you are claiming to be an epistemic zombie then you have experiences.
Non-sequitur.

As an epistemic zombie I am claiming that I don't know whether I have experiences or not.

If I knew that I have experiences then I am human.
if I knew that I don't have experiences then I am a philosophical zombie.

I don't know!
Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:41 am Therefore, you are not really a zombie of any type.
Non-sequitur.
What I am saying does follow from my premises.
Skepdick
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Skepdick »

Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:49 am What I am saying does follow from my premises.
It doesn't.
Ginkgo
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Ginkgo »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:51 am
Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:49 am What I am saying does follow from my premises.
It doesn't.
Yes it does. We will have to agree to disagree on that one.
Skepdick
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Skepdick »

Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:53 am Yes it does. We will have to agree to disagree on that one.
You can agree to disagree with me, but you can't agree to disagree with yourself.

You said: Philosophical zombies think they are human with experiences and feelings.

You think you are human with experiences and feelings. EXACTLY like a philosophical zombie!

So are you a human, or a philosophical zombie? We can just flip a coin if you can't decide.
Ginkgo
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Ginkgo »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:56 am
Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:53 am Yes it does. We will have to agree to disagree on that one.
You can agree to disagree with me, but you can't agree to disagree with yourself.

You said: Philosophical zombies think they are human with experiences and feelings.

You think you are human with experiences and feelings. EXACTLY like a philosophical zombie!

So are you a human, or a philosophical zombie? We can just flip a coin if you can't decide.
I have answered that question in our other discussion. Perhaps we should confine ourselves to just one OP.
Belinda
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Belinda »

Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:14 am
Skepdick wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:56 am
Ginkgo wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:53 am Yes it does. We will have to agree to disagree on that one.
You can agree to disagree with me, but you can't agree to disagree with yourself.

You said: Philosophical zombies think they are human with experiences and feelings.

You think you are human with experiences and feelings. EXACTLY like a philosophical zombie!

So are you a human, or a philosophical zombie? We can just flip a coin if you can't decide.
I have answered that question in our other discussion. Perhaps we should confine ourselves to just one OP.
Mind, which a philosophical zombie lacks by definition, is as real an attribute of nature as is body/brain. This is because body/brain like all else may be mind dependent, although I don't think it is. Mind may be an epiphenomenon of body/brain although I don't think it is. Physicalism is as plausible as idealism and vice versa. Mind, and body/brain, are two aspects of the same thing.

This thing of which mind and body/brain are aspects cannot be a philosophical zombie as PZs are not dual aspect beings.A philosophical zombie cannot by definition conceptualise because concepts are of the mind. It can't conceptualise selfhood. One's self is introspected but can't be localised in some part of the brain or body proper. Anyone can feel a philosophical zombie is a self, but nobody can logically believe it is a self.

You can't conceptualise unless you are a subject of experience. Subjectivity is prior to sentience, conceptualisation, and consciousness. True, a simple life form can't form concepts although it can and does react. Mind is probably an aspect of being that evolved from body/'brain'.It did evolve and that's a fact to which most of us can attest.Mind is synobymous with being a subject of experience.

A philosophical zombie is an object of experience: a man is a subject of experience.It's hermeneutic.
commonsense
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Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by commonsense »

Belinda wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:33 pm
Mind, which a philosophical zombie lacks by definition, is as real an attribute of nature as is body/brain. This is because body/brain like all else may be mind dependent, although I don't think it is. Mind may be an epiphenomenon of body/brain although I don't think it is. Physicalism is as plausible as idealism and vice versa. Mind, and body/brain, are two aspects of the same thing.

This thing of which mind and body/brain are aspects cannot be a philosophical zombie as PZs are not dual aspect beings.A philosophical zombie cannot by definition conceptualise because concepts are of the mind. It can't conceptualise selfhood. One's self is introspected but can't be localised in some part of the brain or body proper. Anyone can feel a philosophical zombie is a self, but nobody can logically believe it is a self.

You can't conceptualise unless you are a subject of experience. Subjectivity is prior to sentience, conceptualisation, and consciousness. True, a simple life form can't form concepts although it can and does react. Mind is probably an aspect of being that evolved from body/'brain'.It did evolve and that's a fact to which most of us can attest.Mind is synobymous with being a subject of experience.

A philosophical zombie is an object of experience: a man is a subject of experience.It's hermeneutic.
I suppose that everything you say is right and important to this discussion. Beyond that, how can you recognize who is human and who is AI/PZ? How can you sense the differences?
Belinda
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Belinda »

Commonsense wrote:
I suppose that everything you say is right and important to this discussion. Beyond that, how can you recognize who is human and who is AI/PZ? How can you sense the differences?
The human is eccentric in his behaviour to the effect that he will favour his own and other individuals' freedom from authorities. It's the degree of eccentricity that makes the man different from computers. Some men are more like computers other men are less like computers.
DMT
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Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by DMT »

Zelebg wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:00 am What if I say a PC becomes conscious the moment you connect it with a monitor and it displays some content. Then I can say, look, there it is its qualia right there on the display, that's what it thinks, that's what it feels. It does not feel like we do in terms of pain and desire, but in terms of geometry of overlapping densities of magnetic and electric fields, however is that supposed to feel.

How can you deny this sentience?
You have the emotional depth of a computer. I don't deny that.
Belinda
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: My computer is sentient, you can not deny it!

Post by Belinda »

DMT wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:16 am
Zelebg wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:00 am What if I say a PC becomes conscious the moment you connect it with a monitor and it displays some content. Then I can say, look, there it is its qualia right there on the display, that's what it thinks, that's what it feels. It does not feel like we do in terms of pain and desire, but in terms of geometry of overlapping densities of magnetic and electric fields, however is that supposed to feel.

How can you deny this sentience?
You have the emotional depth of a computer. I don't deny that.
What is emotional depth? Are emotions physiological processes, or do you conflate emotions and feelings?
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