proposition (1)

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-1-
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Re: proposition (1)

Post by -1- » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:19 pm

Prior to this post,

- there were 15 posts
- made by 7 posters
- voicing 11 different opinions on
- 1 topic.

Yep. We are philosophers.

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waechter418
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Re: proposition (1)

Post by waechter418 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:36 pm

-1- wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:19 pm
Prior to this post,

- there were 15 posts
- made by 7 posters
- voicing 11 different opinions on
- 1 topic.

Yep. We are philosophers.
Thank you friends :D !

Would be great if you were to contribute to some of my other posts :idea:

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Dontaskme
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Re: proposition (1)

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:56 am

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:22 pm
The mind and consciousness are a property of the brain. They are/ it is what the brain does.
Atla wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:35 am
Consciousness (reality, the world, existence) doesn't "do" anything.
-1- wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:19 pm
I believe none of us knows what we are talking about.
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:51 am
Impossible to polish the word using a word. Words are Turds. Shit Happens!!

Silence never happened.
:lol:

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bahman
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Re: proposition (1)

Post by bahman » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:44 am

AlexW wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:27 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:27 pm
No, the mind is fundamental. Consciousness is a property of mind.
Can you observe thought or are you always lost in it?
I experience thoughts.
AlexW wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:27 pm
If you can observe thought, then what is it that observes?
My mind.

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waechter418
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Re: proposition (1)

Post by waechter418 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:00 pm

How about:

mind accumulates and transforms the manifestations of Consciousness - Self is the coordinate and core of mind

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Sculptor
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Re: proposition (1)

Post by Sculptor » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:57 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:56 am
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:22 pm
The mind and consciousness are a property of the brain. They are/ it is what the brain does.
Atla wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:35 am
Consciousness (reality, the world, existence) doesn't "do" anything.
-1- wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:19 pm
I believe none of us knows what we are talking about.
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:51 am
Impossible to polish the word using a word. Words are Turds. Shit Happens!!

Silence never happened.
:lol:
The only one making sense is me.
Least of all you. So carry on giggling like a hyena it suits you.

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Re: proposition (1)

Post by AlexW » Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:49 am

bahman wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:44 am
I experience thoughts.
Agree (but, if you actually look you will find that: the one that thinks he/she experiences thought is also just a thought - in truth, the experiencer can not be found)
bahman wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:44 am
My mind.
So thought experiences thought?
Or is what you call mind more than just a collection of thoughts?
How do you know this mind exists? Isn't it also just thought that states this "truth"?

And... maybe you actually mean consciousness and just call it mind?

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Re: proposition (1)

Post by -1- » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:37 am

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:22 pm
The mind and consciousness are a property of the brain. They are/ it is what the brain does.
By saying mind is a property of the brain, you mean a possession, or a quality?

If it is a possession, you did not describe it. Similarly to how one can say "These widget-hookers are mine." What are widget-hookers? the sentence gives no clue as to that.

If it is a quality, you are still hedging the defining of the concept. "My house is blue." Okay, but what's blue? Everyone knows what blue is. But here the question is what is mind/consciousness. Questioned in a way which presupposes none of us knows how it is defined. So it is not known, and you come and chime in to say mind / consciousness is / are a quality of the brain. Which tells nothing to a being what mind / consciousness is.

I think you are wrong in saying that your answer is the best. I think mine is. (Which was "none of us know what we are talking about.")

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Re: proposition (1)

Post by Atla » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:56 am

-1- wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:15 pm
waechter418 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:21 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:27 pm

No, the mind is fundamental. Consciousness is a property of mind.
Which comes first - the chicken or the egg ? :wink:
We are all mincing words without a thought to reason.

In other words, I believe none of us knows what we are talking about.

In other words, we have strong opinions on things we care about, but know virtually nothing about.
-1- wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:06 am
AlexW, what's the difference between mind and consciousness? They constantly co-exist. How do you separate the two?
In nondual terminology, "consciousness" is usually a synonim for the world/all existence/reality/being, experiencing itself/the Absolute. These are all synonimes, everything is consciousness and we are it.

"Mind" roughly refers to a part of the head of a living organism. So the individual mind is a "part" of consciousness, but also one with it without separation.

In Western philosophy English however, consciousness is usually used as a synonim for mind, because of our standard hallucination where we hallucinate that consciousness is "ours", that it's somehow limited to the individual too.

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Re: proposition (1)

Post by -1- » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:23 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:56 am
In nondual terminology, "consciousness" is usually a synonim for the world/all existence/reality/being, experiencing itself/the Absolute. These are all synonimes, everything is consciousness and we are it.

"Mind" roughly refers to a part of the head of a living organism. So the individual mind is a "part" of consciousness, but also one with it without separation.

In Western philosophy English however, consciousness is usually used as a synonim for mind, because of our standard hallucination where we hallucinate that consciousness is "ours", that it's somehow limited to the individual too.
You have anything to back up these claims? I don't mean books by authorities. I mean by insight or by intuition. Logic. Reason.

What you wrote seems to me as a text by one who bought into the currently modern (but in my opinion stupid) view of declaring consciousness to be a fantasm, an illusion.

I so don't buy that. If it's an illusion, then there is a mind that illudes it. And my mind is my mind. I don't share it with anyone else.

If someone kicks his dog, do you feel the dog's pain? If someone else other than you has an orgasm, do you feel the pleasure? If yes, you're a lucky guy as at any given time of the day there are literally tens of millions of orgasms going on concurrently.

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Re: proposition (1)

Post by Atla » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:42 am

-1- wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:23 am
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:56 am
In nondual terminology, "consciousness" is usually a synonim for the world/all existence/reality/being, experiencing itself/the Absolute. These are all synonimes, everything is consciousness and we are it.

"Mind" roughly refers to a part of the head of a living organism. So the individual mind is a "part" of consciousness, but also one with it without separation.

In Western philosophy English however, consciousness is usually used as a synonim for mind, because of our standard hallucination where we hallucinate that consciousness is "ours", that it's somehow limited to the individual too.
You have anything to back up these claims? I don't mean books by authorities. I mean by insight or by intuition. Logic. Reason.

What you wrote seems to me as a text by one who bought into the currently modern (but in my opinion stupid) view of declaring consciousness to be a fantasm, an illusion.

I so don't buy that. If it's an illusion, then there is a mind that illudes it. And my mind is my mind. I don't share it with anyone else.

If someone kicks his dog, do you feel the dog's pain? If someone else other than you has an orgasm, do you feel the pleasure? If yes, you're a lucky guy as at any given time of the day there are literally tens of millions of orgasms going on concurrently.
Consciousness is not an illusion, anyone who claims that doesn't understand.

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Re: proposition (1)

Post by bahman » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:06 am

AlexW wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:49 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:44 am
I experience thoughts.
Agree (but, if you actually look you will find that: the one that thinks he/she experiences thought is also just a thought - in truth, the experiencer can not be found)
bahman wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:44 am
My mind.
So thought experiences thought?
Or is what you call mind more than just a collection of thoughts?
How do you know this mind exists? Isn't it also just thought that states this "truth"?

And... maybe you actually mean consciousness and just call it mind?
By mind, I mean the essence of any being/thing with the ability to experience and cause. I have an argument for the existence of mind: Consider a change in a system, A to B. A and B cannot coexist therefore A has to vanishes before B is caused. There is however nothing when A vanishes and B cannot possibly be caused by nothing. Therefore, there should exist a mind which experiences A and causes B.

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Re: proposition (1)

Post by -1- » Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:23 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:56 am
In Western philosophy English however, consciousness is usually used as a synonim for mind, because of our standard hallucination where we hallucinate that consciousness is "ours", that it's somehow limited to the individual too.
-1-: You have anything to back up these claims?

-Atla- : Consciousness is not an illusion, anyone who claims that doesn't understand.

-1-: I thought that you wrote the red parts both.

How do you reconcile consciousness being a hallucination with consciousness being a non-hallucination?

And what is a nondual terminology?

At any rate you did not back up your post's claims with anything but saying people don't understand.

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Re: proposition (1)

Post by Atla » Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:31 pm

-1- wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:23 pm
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:56 am
In Western philosophy English however, consciousness is usually used as a synonim for mind, because of our standard hallucination where we hallucinate that consciousness is "ours", that it's somehow limited to the individual too.
-1-: You have anything to back up these claims?

-Atla- : Consciousness is not an illusion, anyone who claims that doesn't understand.

-1-: I thought that you wrote the red parts both.

How do you reconcile consciousness being a hallucination with consciousness being a non-hallucination?

And what is a nondual terminology?

At any rate you did not back up your post's claims with anything but saying people don't understand.
That's not what I wrote. We hallucinate that consciousness belongs to "us", to the "I", to the individual self, that it's somehow limited to the individual mind or the individual brain or something like that.

But in reality, consciousness is everywhere, it's the same as the world, it's not "ours". With some training one can get rid of the above hallucination.

(And of course 100% of all known evidence supports this view.)

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Re: proposition (1)

Post by -1- » Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:37 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:31 pm

But in reality, consciousness is everywhere, it's the same as the world, it's not "ours". With some training one can get rid of the above hallucination.

(And of course 100% of all known evidence supports this view.)
Lots of evidence supports this view to be false.

If someone kicks his dog, do you feel the dog's pain? If someone else other than you has an orgasm, do you feel the pleasure? If yes, you're a lucky guy as at any given time of the day there are literally tens of millions of orgasms going on concurrently.

Do you have my thoughts? Do you have my feelings? Do you know when I am hungry, horny, tired, have to pee?

I so don't buy this "common consciousness" idea.

If, as you say, 100% of evidence supports this view, then you'd be able to give me three simple instances of the theory's claim, wouldn't you.

So I ask you to please give me three instances of evidence that supports your claim, inasmuch as it is "consciousness is everywhere, it's the same as the world, it's not "ours"".

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