Ontology Introduction

So what's really going on?

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RCSaunders
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Re: Ontology Introduction

Post by RCSaunders » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:07 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:57 pm
I'm completely confident that metaphysics is ab9out what can and cannot be demonstrated. The process is called 'abduction'.
Abduction? Is that really what you mean?

From the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language:
abduct
tr.v. ab·duct·ed, ab·duct·ing, ab·ducts
1. To carry off by force; kidnap.
2. Physiology To draw away from the midline of the body or from an adjacent part or limb.
ab·duct·ee n.
ab·duction n.

From Merriam-Webster:
abduction
noun
1 : the action of abducting : the condition of being abducted

I have never seen that word used as you have used it. Where did you find that meaning?

Skepdick
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Re: Ontology Introduction

Post by Skepdick » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:18 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:07 pm
PeteJ wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:57 pm
I'm completely confident that metaphysics is ab9out what can and cannot be demonstrated. The process is called 'abduction'.
Abduction? Is that really what you mean?
(...)
I have never seen that word used as you have used it. Where did you find that meaning?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning

Abductive reasoning (also called abduction,[1] abductive inference,[1] or retroduction[2]) is a form of logical inference which starts with an observation or set of observations then seeks to find the simplest and most likely explanation for the observations.

Why is everybody on philosophy forums so obsessed with dictionaries when it comes to the meaning of technical jargon?

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RCSaunders
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Re: Ontology Introduction

Post by RCSaunders » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:02 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:18 pm
Why is everybody on philosophy forums so obsessed with dictionaries when it comes to the meaning of technical jargon?
Because they have discovered the world is full of con men and quacks passing themselves off as philosophers, academics, scientists, and experts who use technical sounding language to deceive their marks.

Skepdick
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Re: Ontology Introduction

Post by Skepdick » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:28 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:02 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:18 pm
Why is everybody on philosophy forums so obsessed with dictionaries when it comes to the meaning of technical jargon?
Because they have discovered the world is full of con men and quacks passing themselves off as philosophers, academics, scientists, and experts who use technical sounding language to deceive their marks.
What's your point? The world is also full of con men and quacks passing themselves off as philosophers, academics, scientists, and experts who use non-technical language to deceive their marks.

People are deceived by ethos either way.

Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts --Richard Feynman

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RCSaunders
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Re: Ontology Introduction

Post by RCSaunders » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:52 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:28 pm
What's your point?
No point. I was answering your question.

Skepdick
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Re: Ontology Introduction

Post by Skepdick » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:07 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:52 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:28 pm
What's your point?
No point. I was answering your question.
I am still waiting for an answer...

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RCSaunders
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Re: Ontology Introduction

Post by RCSaunders » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:34 am

Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:07 pm
RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:52 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:28 pm
What's your point?
No point. I was answering your question.
I am still waiting for an answer...
Go back to this post.

PeteJ
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Re: Ontology Introduction

Post by PeteJ » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:39 am

Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:01 pm
PeteJ wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:57 pm
Dogmatism is not confidence. The two may be confused, of course.
Your black-and-white world-view isn't really helping us get anywhere.
PeteJ wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:57 pm
I'm completely confident that metaphysics is ab9out what can and cannot be demonstrated.
Completely confident you say? How complete is your confidence?
Sufficiently complete that nothing can convince that you are wrong? e.g your confidence is unfalsifiable?

That's called dogma.
PeteJ wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:57 pm
If it were possible to demonstrate the independent existence of anything (any thing) then it would be possible to falsify the Perennial philosophy.
So you take existence as being undeniably true e.g unfalsifiable.

dogma. noun. a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

So I guess by the process of abduction, it is a true claim to say that you are dogmatic about metaphysics then?
If you develop an interest in the topic I'll be happy to chat. Otherwise I'm sure we've both got better things to do.

PeteJ
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Re: Ontology Introduction

Post by PeteJ » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:43 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:07 pm
PeteJ wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:57 pm
I'm completely confident that metaphysics is ab9out what can and cannot be demonstrated. The process is called 'abduction'.
Abduction? Is that really what you mean?
It is defined by Peirce as 'inference to the best explanation'. Definitions vary but this is its principle meaning.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abduction_(logic)

It is the method of Sherlock H9olmes.

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RCSaunders
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Re: Ontology Introduction

Post by RCSaunders » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:57 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:43 am
It is defined by Peirce as 'inference to the best explanation'. Definitions vary but this is its principle meaning.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abduction_(logic)

It is the method of Sherlock H9olmes.
If this is the kind of logic you use, it explains a lot.
Thanks!

Nick_A
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Re: Ontology Introduction

Post by Nick_A » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:23 pm

RCSaunders
Ontology is the branch of metaphysics which deals specifically with the nature of material existence.

Material existence is all that exists independently of anyone's knowledge or awareness. "Independent of" does not mean separate from, but, "whether or not anyone knows or is aware of that existence." Material existence includes what is usually referred to as, "physical existence," which is all that we can directly perceive and is the subject of the physical sciences. It also includes life, consciousness, and the human mind, which also exist independently of anyone's knowledge or awareness, but are not physical. (Of course no consiousness or mind exists independently of the one whose conciousness and mind they are.)
I read two basic problems with this. The first is the usual definition of ontology:
Ontology: the branch of metaphysics dealing with the nature of being.
Does the study of the nature of being mean the same as the study of materiality for you?

The study of being for me includes the quality of the relationship of the three essential forces which create a phenomenon

The second is the study of vibrations. All matter vibrates and its rate of vibration together with its density define its being – its living properties.

What is matter? When matter vibrates at a high enough frequency it becomes energy. They are the same but differ according to the laws of vibration.

All this is why I prefer to define ontology as the study of the nature of being as opposed to materiality perceptible to our senses.

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RCSaunders
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Re: Ontology Introduction

Post by RCSaunders » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:14 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:23 pm
What is matter? When matter vibrates at a high enough frequency it becomes energy. They are the same but differ according to the laws of vibration.

All this is why I prefer to define ontology as the study of the nature of being as opposed to materiality perceptible to our senses.
Of course you may define ontology any way you think is best. I can only discuss ontology in terms of what it is to me.

I do have one question. How did you come to know about vibration and that what vibrates is matter?

Nick_A
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Re: Ontology Introduction

Post by Nick_A » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:04 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:14 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:23 pm
What is matter? When matter vibrates at a high enough frequency it becomes energy. They are the same but differ according to the laws of vibration.

All this is why I prefer to define ontology as the study of the nature of being as opposed to materiality perceptible to our senses.
Of course you may define ontology any way you think is best. I can only discuss ontology in terms of what it is to me.

I do have one question. How did you come to know about vibration and that what vibrates is matter?
One good source for learning about the laws of vibrations is through the Hermetic principle of vibration. Once I realized that what we call matter is just a measure of the vibratory quality of the three elemental forces, the relationship between existence above and below Plato's divided line became obvious for me.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/kyb/kyb11.htm
The great Third Hermetic Principle--the Principle of Vibration--embodies the truth that Motion is manifest in everything in the Universe--that nothing is at rest--that everything moves, vibrates, and circles. This Hermetic Principle was recognized by some of the early Greek philosophers who embodied it in their systems. But, then, for centuries it was lost sight of by the thinkers outside of the Hermetic ranks. But in the Nineteenth Century physical science re-discovered the truth and the Twentieth Century scientific discoveries have added additional proof of the correctness and truth of this centuries-old Hermetic doctrine.

The Hermetic Teachings are that not only is everything in constant movement and vibration, but that the "differences" between the various manifestations of the universal power are due entirely to the varying rate and mode of vibrations. Not only this, but that even THE ALL, in itself, manifests a constant vibration of such an infinite degree of intensity and rapid motion that it may be practically considered as at rest, the teachers directing the attention of the students to the fact that even on the physical plane a rapidly moving object (such as a revolving wheel) seems to be at rest. The Teachings are to the effect that Spirit is at one end of the Pole of Vibration, the other Pole being certain extremely gross forms of Matter. Between these two poles are millions upon millions of different rates and modes of vibration.

Modern Science has proven that all that we call Matter and Energy are but "modes of vibratory motion," and some of the more advanced scientists are rapidly moving toward the positions of the occultists who hold that the phenomena of Mind are likewise modes of vibration or motion. Let us see what science has to say regarding the question of vibrations in matter and energy.......................

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RCSaunders
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Re: Ontology Introduction

Post by RCSaunders » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:46 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:04 pm
The Teachings are to the effect that Spirit is at one end of the Pole of Vibration, the other Pole being certain extremely gross forms of Matter.
What is spirit?

...and these vibrations are vibrations of what?

Nick_A
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Re: Ontology Introduction

Post by Nick_A » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:05 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:46 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:04 pm
The Teachings are to the effect that Spirit is at one end of the Pole of Vibration, the other Pole being certain extremely gross forms of Matter.
What is spirit?

...and these vibrations are vibrations of what?
As you know, it would take more than a post to explain these ideas so a person can see the logic in them. But for now, are you open to the idea that the universe is mental rather than physical? If it is, its source is consciousness or the totality of the essence of existence. It is the living essence of consciousness.

Every phenomenon is the result of the union of three forces. They are known as the Trinity, the three Gunas, or other names. I appreciate them as affirming, denying, and reconciling

You may have heard the expression God is love which is taken superficially. Love is the highest form of energy in the universe followed by the creative energies. The three forces of the Trinity are united in love. Affirmation and denial revolve round each other and are reconciled by the energy of love. Vibration in matter is life. The quality of life or the quality of being - its "isness" is determined by its relationship to the ALL, the ONE, Plato's GOOD, or whatever name is used for the ineffable living conscious source of creation.

Affirmation strives for unity, Denial strives for diversity, reconciliation allows them to function together as the living whole: "I AM."

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