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### Re: What's your answer to the most fundamental question concerning time?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:16 am
Speakpigeon wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:49 pm Assuming a number of clocks are set to read the same as some master clock, why would they stay synchronised with it if time doesn't exist?[/i]
You have three clocks A (master), B and C.
After a year B and C agree with each other, and both disagree with A.

Which clocks(s) is/are wrong?

### Re: What's your answer to the most fundamental question concerning time?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:09 pm
I'll take a stab (assuming they all function in precisely the same way) - none.

### Re: What's your answer to the most fundamental question concerning time?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:23 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:09 pm I'll take a stab (assuming they all function in precisely the same way) - none.
If they all functioned in "precisely the same way" they wouldn't drift apart.

### Re: What's your answer to the most fundamental question concerning time?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:29 pm
Logik wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:23 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:09 pm
Logik wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:23 pm You have three clocks A (master), B and C.
After a year B and C agree with each other, and both disagree with A.

Which clocks(s) is/are wrong?
I'll take a stab (assuming they all function in precisely the same way) - none.
If they all functioned in "precisely the same way" they wouldn't drift apart.
I thought that this argument might ensue and I really need to get on with shit that matters.

But in response - yes they would, dependent upon their position within the universe.

### Re: What's your answer to the most fundamental question concerning time?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:39 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:29 pm I thought that this argument might ensue and I really need to get on with shit that matters.

But in response - yes they would, dependent upon their position within the universe.
You can put them as close to each other as possible. In the same, controlled room/environment.

They will drift apart. Because entropy.

### Re: What's your answer to the most fundamental question concerning time?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:22 pm
Logik wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:39 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:29 pm I thought that this argument might ensue and I really need to get on with shit that matters.

But in response - yes they would, dependent upon their position within the universe.
You can put them as close to each other as possible. In the same, controlled room/environment.

They will drift apart. Because entropy.
But you stated:-
Logik wrote:]You have three clocks A (master), B and C.
After a year B and C agree with each other, and both disagree with A.

Which clocks(s) is/are wrong?
I stated 'none' - the reason for which I must divulge at some point.
But for now and since they all function in precisely the same way, why with your latter statement, do clocks B and C agree and are different to A?

### Re: What's your answer to the most fundamental question concerning time?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:39 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:22 pm I stated 'none' - the reason for which I must divulge at some point.
But for now and since they all function in precisely the same way, why with your latter statement, do clocks B and C agree and are different to A?
That's the point - they don't "function in precisely the same way". They are INTENDED to function "precisely the same way", but due to manufacturing imprecision and environmental entropy they will drift apart from each other.

Reality doesn't care about our intentions.

And so you can't really tell which clock is "wrong". It is entirely possible that all three drifted apart, just B and C (coincidentally) correspond with each other despite drift. Does this matter in practice?

Yeah. Sometimes

People have died because of race conditions

### Re: What's your answer to the most fundamental question concerning time?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:50 pm
Logik wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:39 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:22 pm I stated 'none' - the reason for which I must divulge at some point.
But for now and since they all function in precisely the same way, why with your latter statement, do clocks B and C agree and are different to A?
That's the point - they don't "function in precisely the same way". They are INTENDED to function "precisely the same way", but due to manufacturing imprecision and environmental entropy they will drift apart from each other.

Reality doesn't care about our intentions.

And so you can't really tell which clock is "wrong". It is entirely possible that all three drifted apart, just B and C (coincidentally) correspond with each other despite drift. Does this matter in practice?
When I stated that the clocks must function in precisely the same way, I was hoping you'd accept beyond man's physical creation of the 'clocks' and the inadequacies of such attempted precision.

I doubt you will entertain your statement "After a year B and C agree with each other, and both disagree with A." if such inadequacies were removed with some form of perfect 'clock'.

### Re: What's your answer to the most fundamental question concerning time?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:54 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:50 pm I was hoping you'd accept beyond man's physical creation of the 'clocks' and the inadequacies of such attempted precision.
You want me to accept wishful thinking?

### Re: What's your answer to the most fundamental question concerning time?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:07 pm
Logik wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:54 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:50 pm I was hoping you'd accept beyond man's physical creation of the 'clocks' and the inadequacies of such attempted precision.
You want me to accept wishful thinking?
I'm pretty sure we are on the same page but just for the fark of it all...

Well, ok then.
We have three identical clocks capable of measuring time to within an attosecond of each other:-
B, C and A. - they are all synchronised accurately to the equal attosecond at that same point in time.
10 years later clock B and C are still accurate to within 1x10^-17 of a second, but clock A is measuring 1x10^-15 of a second different.

Why?

### Re: What's your answer to the most fundamental question concerning time?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:12 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:07 pm 10 years later clock B and C are still accurate to within 1x10^-17 of a second, but clock A is measuring 1x10^-15 of a second different.

Why?
Because it drifted ?

There's literally no way to answer that question. If you can pin-point clock drift, you can eliminate clock-drift.

### Re: What's your answer to the most fundamental question concerning time?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:18 pm
Logik wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:12 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:07 pm 10 years later clock B and C are still accurate to within 1x10^-17 of a second, but clock A is measuring 1x10^-15 of a second different.

Why?
Because it drifted ?

There's literally no way to answer that question. If you can pin-point clock drift, you can eliminate clock-drift.
Yeah, I can put up with that so long as by 'clock drift; you are talking about the events that occur within the clocks due to their speed and any gravitational affects. Besides having to do maths about how distant each clock might have made within the attoseconds afforded and the affect of it all - the shit in space etc etc.

### Re: What's your answer to the most fundamental question concerning time?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:13 pm
Reminder
Speakpigeon wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:49 pm This is the most fundamental question concerning time: If time doesn't exist as such, if the only reality of time is to be a mere convention, a convenience to ensure the necessary synchronisation of our activities across society, including the synchronisation of our machines and of our scientific instruments, then how is it at all possible to durably synchronise different clocks, among other things. Assuming a number of clocks are set to read the same as some master clock, why would they stay synchronised with it if time doesn't exist?
EB
I was being polite here.
EB

### Re: What's your answer to the most fundamental question concerning time?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:11 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:13 pm Reminder
Speakpigeon wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:49 pm This is the most fundamental question concerning time: If time doesn't exist as such, if the only reality of time is to be a mere convention, a convenience to ensure the necessary synchronisation of our activities across society, including the synchronisation of our machines and of our scientific instruments, then how is it at all possible to durably synchronise different clocks, among other things. Assuming a number of clocks are set to read the same as some master clock, why would they stay synchronised with it if time doesn't exist?
EB