What is time?

So what's really going on?

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Speakpigeon
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Re: What is time?

Post by Speakpigeon » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:36 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:27 pm
Speakpigeon wrote:
we can go back to the same shop again and again, and we usually do, but we can't go back to our childhood.
It's never the same shop though, albeit the building's spatial coordinates are the same .The shopkeeper too is not the same person albeit his birth certificate, fingerprint, and DNA are the same.
Exactly.
Belinda wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:27 pm
Childhood usually has no coordinates however on some legal occasions childhood is demarcated by the age when you can fight as a soldier, or get married, or vote. Childhood has been approximately defined by developmental theories.
Childhood and Mrs. Mac's wee shop are events which are conceptualised by language.
Rather, we work out a concept using language. Or our brain does. Or our linguistic thoughts somehow work out a concept.
As I see it, it's just our brain that runs a linguistic programme that calls itself "me" and that can think abstract thoughts and communicate about them with other linguistic programmes ran by other people's brain. So I would agree with you if that's what you have in mind that language is a crucial aspect of our nature. So, I know the concept of the shop I need to go to and apparently I succeed in going to what seems to be the actual shop and buy there things that seem to be foodstuff there.
EB

AlexW
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Re: What is time?

Post by AlexW » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:27 pm

Speakpigeon wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:10 pm
You would need a little more than "now".
True - a thought referring to another now.
Speakpigeon wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:10 pm
If there's a previous now, how come there's any connection at all between the previous now and the current one?
Memory aka thought (and the consciousness, which is always present, in which they arise - but: this does not mean that thought and consciousness are two separate things)
Speakpigeon wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:10 pm
I would call that an elementary event.
I would rather call it an "objective experience".
Time (as well as space) require some kind of "substratum" to be conceptualised and thus to make any sense at all.
In deep sleep this substratum is missing and therefore we do not experience time or space - in the waking state this substratum is present as objective experience.
The key for time and space to arise (as concepts) is not so much experience itself but its apparent objectivity.
So where does objectivity come from? What is its origin?
How do you know the world? Primary, direct experience happens via sense impressions, but none of the senses provide information about objectivity - they simply provide raw data (visual, audio, smell, taste, touch). That a certain mix of colors actually defines a separate object - an apple, a pear, a banana - has been acquired over time (as a new conceptual structure aka thought), when we were maybe around 2-3 years old, and is from then on identified as a thing that seems to exist independently from the observer, in its own right.
So we add this conceptual layer to experience and start living in it (we even think up a separate self that is, just like the apple, an object created by conceptual thought) forgetting that the primary, basic experience is perfectly empty - it does not contain the slightest taint of objectivity.
Thus time (as well as space) is a derivative of objectivity, and objectivity is a child of thought - it thus follows that time (and space) is dependent on thought (in certain cases also referred to as "memory") and that without conceptual thought there is only this undivided flow of experience (even calling it "experience" is actually too much as there is no separate experiencer either - there is simply unified, absolute being).
Speakpigeon wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:10 pm
Only events, some of them our own thoughts
Looked at from the perspective of thought, yes, we can call "objective experience" an elementary event - a thought defining such an event (and another thought stating that this happened in a certain sequence).
Ultimately though, previous to objectification, there are no such events either.

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Dontaskme
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Re: What is time?

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:30 am

AlexW wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:27 pm
Speakpigeon wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:10 pm
You would need a little more than "now".
True - a thought referring to another now.
Speakpigeon wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:10 pm
If there's a previous now, how come there's any connection at all between the previous now and the current one?
Memory aka thought (and the consciousness, which is always present, in which they arise - but: this does not mean that thought and consciousness are two separate things)
Speakpigeon wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:10 pm
I would call that an elementary event.
I would rather call it an "objective experience".
Time (as well as space) require some kind of "substratum" to be conceptualised and thus to make any sense at all.
In deep sleep this substratum is missing and therefore we do not experience time or space - in the waking state this substratum is present as objective experience.
The key for time and space to arise (as concepts) is not so much experience itself but its apparent objectivity.
So where does objectivity come from? What is its origin?
How do you know the world? Primary, direct experience happens via sense impressions, but none of the senses provide information about objectivity - they simply provide raw data (visual, audio, smell, taste, touch). That a certain mix of colors actually defines a separate object - an apple, a pear, a banana - has been acquired over time (as a new conceptual structure aka thought), when we were maybe around 2-3 years old, and is from then on identified as a thing that seems to exist independently from the observer, in its own right.
So we add this conceptual layer to experience and start living in it (we even think up a separate self that is, just like the apple, an object created by conceptual thought) forgetting that the primary, basic experience is perfectly empty - it does not contain the slightest taint of objectivity.
Thus time (as well as space) is a derivative of objectivity, and objectivity is a child of thought - it thus follows that time (and space) is dependent on thought (in certain cases also referred to as "memory") and that without conceptual thought there is only this undivided flow of experience (even calling it "experience" is actually too much as there is no separate experiencer either - there is simply unified, absolute being).
Speakpigeon wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:10 pm
Only events, some of them our own thoughts
Looked at from the perspective of thought, yes, we can call "objective experience" an elementary event - a thought defining such an event (and another thought stating that this happened in a certain sequence).
Ultimately though, previous to objectification, there are no such events either.
Very well said, impeccably articulated.

.

AlexW
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Re: What is time?

Post by AlexW » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:31 am

Thank you DAM

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Dontaskme
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Re: What is time?

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:32 am

AlexW wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:31 am
Thank you DAM
:D

osgart
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Re: What is time?

Post by osgart » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:21 am

Maybe there isnt time but there sure is a linear flow of events. Why should i not trust my senses when a wave finally does come over me and i feel it so accurately?

I can suppose time is a wave of potentiality yet to realize its potential in a future now. That some fixed points of reference move faster than others all the while motion itself remains at a constant range of speeds. Perhaps time is heavily influenced by what it comes in contact with.

Im thinking time comes in contact with space, matter and energy and developes resistances that vary depending on the environment contacted. High to low.

Earth is mostly uniform in its resistance to time. My now is approximately uniform to your now.

Time unimpeded by matter, energy and space may exist outside the universe and there are places that currently exist far ahead in the future we are yet to realize. And our now moves into the future toward that point with a blank slate of potentiality in its future toward that point.

So a future exists where we are yet to operate in that future now.

I do think time exists forever the same past, present, and future, but us moving through that time have a total event range that is totally undecided, and is totally up to us how we move into that future time.

The universe will unfold one particular way but events we live out are totally up to us, and have not happened yet.

So if time were a candybar, and we are at point A of it, the beginning of it. Then time is already there at point Z, the end of it, and A to Z is an unwritten book except for the deterministic outcome of non living space, energy, and matter. And that candybar of time exists and all potentialities of time exist all at once the same.

We dont ever reach a now that is the very last now because time is infinite in all directions, with infinite potentiality infinitely existing. This is our very first instance of moving through time our whole lives.

So if i moved back in time 200 years it would be there and i could alter the preexisting history. If i moved ahead in time 200 years i would have to wait for humanity to arrive if i could stop my flow of time at that 200 years.

Atla
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Re: What is time?

Post by Atla » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:59 am

AlexW wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:27 pm
Thus time (as well as space) is a derivative of objectivity, and objectivity is a child of thought - it thus follows that time (and space) is dependent on thought (in certain cases also referred to as "memory") and that without conceptual thought there is only this undivided flow of experience (even calling it "experience" is actually too much as there is no separate experiencer either - there is simply unified, absolute being).
In the classical, psychological sense, yes. Space and time are mind functions, ways how the human experience is constructed roughly inside the head. But this is illusory, actually it's always "now", we are sitting in the middle of eternity.

However we should also add that, that in a more underlying Einsteinian sense, space and time are indeed inherent features of the observable universe. In this sense, the current now and the past now really should be differentiated, time is an actual or apparent phenomenon that we are bound to.

And in a third, even more underlying, quantum sense, there is timelessness, but the so-called past present and future are all "real" and inseparably one. Again confirming the eternal now.

So although there are no separate events, space and time are indeed sort of inherent features of the observable universe, even without objectification. The human experience is always constructed within the constraints of such spacetime. (Someone may sit still for days in deep meditation not "experiencing" any space or time, but will be still bound to Einsteinian spacetime.)

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Speakpigeon
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Re: What is time?

Post by Speakpigeon » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:14 am

AlexW wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:27 pm
True - a thought referring to another now. Memory aka thought (and the consciousness, which is always present, in which they arise - but: this does not mean that thought and consciousness are two separate things) I would rather call it an "objective experience". Time (as well as space) require some kind of "substratum" to be conceptualised and thus to make any sense at all. In deep sleep this substratum is missing and therefore we do not experience time or space - in the waking state this substratum is present as objective experience. The key for time and space to arise (as concepts) is not so much experience itself but its apparent objectivity. So where does objectivity come from? What is its origin? How do you know the world? Primary, direct experience happens via sense impressions, but none of the senses provide information about objectivity - they simply provide raw data (visual, audio, smell, taste, touch). That a certain mix of colors actually defines a separate object - an apple, a pear, a banana - has been acquired over time (as a new conceptual structure aka thought), when we were maybe around 2-3 years old, and is from then on identified as a thing that seems to exist independently from the observer, in its own right. So we add this conceptual layer to experience and start living in it (we even think up a separate self that is, just like the apple, an object created by conceptual thought) forgetting that the primary, basic experience is perfectly empty - it does not contain the slightest taint of objectivity. Thus time (as well as space) is a derivative of objectivity, and objectivity is a child of thought - it thus follows that time (and space) is dependent on thought (in certain cases also referred to as "memory") and that without conceptual thought there is only this undivided flow of experience (even calling it "experience" is actually too much as there is no separate experiencer either - there is simply unified, absolute being). Looked at from the perspective of thought, yes, we can call "objective experience" an elementary event - a thought defining such an event (and another thought stating that this happened in a certain sequence). Ultimately though, previous to objectification, there are no such events either.
Sorry, but your piece is all over the place in terms of the vocabulary you use. You make it impossible for anyone to make sense of what you say. Try to tidy up the way you express yourself. This is a forum. Not a soliloquy.
EB

AlexW
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Re: What is time?

Post by AlexW » Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:58 pm

Speakpigeon wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:14 am
Sorry, but your piece is all over the place in terms of the vocabulary you use. You make it impossible for anyone to make sense of what you say. Try to tidy up the way you express yourself. This is a forum. Not a soliloquy.
EB
What exactly don’t you understand?
I am happy to try to explain using a different vocabulary.

Belinda
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Re: What is time?

Post by Belinda » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:11 pm

AlexW wrote:
Time (as well as space) require some kind of "substratum" to be conceptualised and thus to make any sense at all.
In deep sleep this substratum is missing and therefore we do not experience time or space - in the waking state this substratum is present as objective experience.

1) But I do recall experiencing time and space during dreaming sleep.I met several people who also experience time and space in recollections of their dreams.

2) Objective experience is not a "substratum" whatever that may be! If you want to talk about a substratum you will not make sense unless you say a) what substance it's a stratum of:

and b) what strata the substratum is under.

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Speakpigeon
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Re: What is time?

Post by Speakpigeon » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:58 pm

I don't even know where to start... So, let's start at the beginning...
AlexW wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:27 pm
Speakpigeon wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:10 pm
You would need a little more than "now".
True - a thought referring to another now.
You need to tell me more than that.
If you accept there is a succession of "nows", and that the current now seems to follow, and follow from, the previous one, you need to explain how this is case.
And if you don't accept there is a succession of "nows", you would need to say so.
EB

Belinda
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Re: What is time?

Post by Belinda » Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:08 pm

AlexW wrote:
Time (as well as space) require some kind of "substratum" to be conceptualised and thus to make any sense at all.
In deep sleep this substratum is missing and therefore we do not experience time or space - in the waking state this substratum is present as objective experience.
I think what you mean is that extended matter and mind each are aspects of the one substance. This one substance is commonly referred to as nature.

Logik
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Re: What is time?

Post by Logik » Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:33 pm

Speakpigeon wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:58 pm
And if you don't accept there is a succession of "nows", you would need to say so.
There are two possible conceptions here. The continuous and the discrete/digital one.

In both cases you need to define what you mean by now? What is the duration of "now" ?

One person might say now and eternity are the same thing.
Another person might say that now is a time-window of <insert arbitrary number here>

AlexW
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Re: What is time?

Post by AlexW » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:31 am

Speakpigeon wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:58 pm
You need to tell me more than that.
If you accept there is a succession of "nows", and that the current now seems to follow, and follow from, the previous one, you need to explain how this is case.
And if you don't accept there is a succession of "nows", you would need to say so.
Evidence speaks against a succession of "nows" actually existing - a succession of nows (of apparently separate experiences) is not more than an idea, we never experience such a succession, all we ever do experience are thoughts talking about previous nows, successions, causes and effects, but we actually never really experience any of these things directly.

As I see it (or rather: experience it) there is only infinite/eternal being and every attempt of cutting this undivided presence into separate parts is not more than a mental exercise. Mind/thought is a very powerful tool, it not only "creates" time but also space (or better: it creates the ideas of time and space) - combines them to the idea of space-time and convinces us that we live in these made up/thought up dimensions (if there is a deeper reason for this to happen, for placing a conceptual map over reality and mistaking it for the real thing, is another question - maybe its a tool for survival, maybe its just a bad joke... who knows...).

Now people generally do not believe that thought is able to create such an intricate illusion, but there are a few good reasons for us to reconsider our belief in a separate, independently existing, objective reality (doesn't mean we have to reject it - it obviously has some great benefits).
If, for example, we investigate our nighttime dreams we find that the mind conjures up a perfectly real looking and behaving reality, time, matter, objectivity and all the rest.
Comparing our dream-experience with our waking experience actually reveals that they are not as different as we think they are - time & space (or rather matter) and objectivity are pretty much the same. They are not - as generally believed - a part of our "physical" experience, they are not a fundamental or built-in property/quality of the data that our mind receives from the senses - it is much rather the case that time, matter, objectivity are only "meaningful" interpretations of the flow of data received via the senses.
It is similar to how a computer receives data, e.g. via a webcam, and then executes a specific program to analyse the flow of zeros and ones (which in and of themselves have no meaning at all) to eventually extract the numberplate of a car - the program/mind creates a specific meaning which again relies on the type of algorithm (conditioned thought) that is applied to the data - its as simple as that.
Meaning (and that includes space/time and objectivity) are the output of a mental process, not a fundamental quality of reality (= the raw data / direct experience).

What that means for a succession of "nows" existing is that, yes, such a succession exists, but only as the output of a mental process, not in the "underlying" reality. As our lives are mostly about mental processing (or so we think) the idea/belief of a succession of previous "nows" - a past - is an important thing, just like the idea of matter and the resulting objectivity is an important part of mapped-out reality - that this map is only an idea that actually has no counterpart in reality is another cup of tea...

AlexW
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Re: What is time?

Post by AlexW » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:48 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:59 am
Space and time are mind functions, ways how the human experience is constructed roughly inside the head. But this is illusory, actually it's always "now", we are sitting in the middle of eternity.
Agree - but there is no "middle" in eternity (or infinity)... there is actually no place or location at all (but you are well aware of that anyway :D )
Atla wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:59 am
So although there are no separate events, space and time are indeed sort of inherent features of the observable universe, even without objectification
The observable universe is not more than a conceptual map wrapped over infinity (map = objectification/interpretation).
As such, yes, space and time are inherent features of the observable universe, of the map labeled "universe".

Anyway, the map is all we can talk about as "underneath" there is... well... there is no name or concept that is able to contain/define it...

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