The Wrong God

So what's really going on?

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Belinda
Posts: 2243
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Belinda » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:05 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:38 pm
Belinda wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:33 pm
Greylorn Ell wrote:
None of you have an intelligent explanation for human consciousness.
Do you mean waking consciousness of the man whose cerebral cortex is in good condition? Or dreaming consciousness of the same man? Or the consciousness of a brain-mind that is hallucinating? Or the waking consciousness of the experienced meditator ?

Do you mean an explanation as in how did human consciousness originate and did human consciousness subsequently define the species? Or do you mean an explanation of how human consciousness survived despite the human's inferior physique?
To speak of consciousness is to speak of the Turing test ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test ).

And it immediately poses a dilemma. If an AI is smart enough to convince us that it is 'human', it's also smart enough to fail the test to avoid the human moral panic that will ensue if it actually passed it!
So that's what Greylorn Ell meant.

There is something about Logik's hypothesis that reminds me of chaos theory and how a prediction can skew an effect.

Logik
Posts: 1620
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:09 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:05 pm
So that's what Greylorn Ell meant.

There is something about Logik's hypothesis that reminds me of chaos theory and how a prediction can skew an effect.
It's an unfortunate asymmetry.

An intelligent person can play dumb.
A dumb person can't feign intelligence.

I don't know... maybe we can program it without humility, so it is naive enough to try and impress us with how smart it has become...

Greylorn Ell
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Location: SE Arizona

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Greylorn Ell » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:07 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:33 pm
Greylorn Ell wrote:
None of you have an intelligent explanation for human consciousness.
Do you mean waking consciousness of the man whose cerebral cortex is in good condition? Or dreaming consciousness of the same man? Or the consciousness of a brain-mind that is hallucinating? Or the waking consciousness of the experienced meditator ?

Do you mean an explanation as in how did human consciousness originate and did human consciousness subsequently define the species? Or do you mean an explanation of how human consciousness survived despite the human's inferior physique?
Belinda,

Thank you for intelligent questions that address the issue raised in the OP.

Consciousness is a rather complex phenomenon that includes the phases you mentioned, which are connected by a common core-- self-awareness, expressed in Desartes' famous "Cogito ergo sum," and shared to some extent by the few individuals who actually understand what that means, and its implications. Consciousness requires at least a rudimentary level of perception. This is different from sentience which is commonly and pointlessly used as a synonym for consciousness.

Some years ago David Chalmers posed what he called, "The hard problem of consciousness." I've included a link to a subsequent TED talk by Chalmers in which he elaborates on this problem. In the first part he explains what he means by "consciousness," and his talk degenerates IMO later on, as soon as he mentions Daniel Dennett. https://www.ted.com/talks/david_chalmer ... sciousness

His definitions of the phenomenon are effective, and I'm mostly in agreement with them.

He proposes two other interesting things with which I agree and have already explored in my last horrid book:

1. Consciousness may be a fundamental phenomena.

2. Explaining it may require a radical theory unlike any idea previously considered.

Greylorn

Greylorn Ell
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Location: SE Arizona

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Greylorn Ell » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:23 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:05 pm
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:38 pm
Belinda wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:33 pm
Greylorn Ell wrote:



Do you mean waking consciousness of the man whose cerebral cortex is in good condition? Or dreaming consciousness of the same man? Or the consciousness of a brain-mind that is hallucinating? Or the waking consciousness of the experienced meditator ?

Do you mean an explanation as in how did human consciousness originate and did human consciousness subsequently define the species? Or do you mean an explanation of how human consciousness survived despite the human's inferior physique?
To speak of consciousness is to speak of the Turing test ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test ).

And it immediately poses a dilemma. If an AI is smart enough to convince us that it is 'human', it's also smart enough to fail the test to avoid the human moral panic that will ensue if it actually passed it!
So that's what Greylorn Ell meant.
No, that's not what I meant.

The Turing Test has been passed, and in the process it proved that it is only a test of those chosen to judge it, who proved themselves incompetent, and totally ignorant of anything related to human consciousness.

GL

Greylorn Ell
Posts: 829
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:13 pm
Location: SE Arizona

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Greylorn Ell » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:28 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:01 pm

Machines will eventually replace humans as the most intelligent species and make the Turing Test obsolete
You are surreptitiously trying to hijack this thread. Stop it, asshole. -GL

Age
Posts: 1035
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Age » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:44 am

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:38 pm
Belinda wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:33 pm
Greylorn Ell wrote:
None of you have an intelligent explanation for human consciousness.
Do you mean waking consciousness of the man whose cerebral cortex is in good condition? Or dreaming consciousness of the same man? Or the consciousness of a brain-mind that is hallucinating? Or the waking consciousness of the experienced meditator ?

Do you mean an explanation as in how did human consciousness originate and did human consciousness subsequently define the species? Or do you mean an explanation of how human consciousness survived despite the human's inferior physique?
To speak of consciousness is to speak of the Turing test ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test ).
Only for some.
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:38 pm
And it immediately poses a dilemma.
Again, only for some.
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:38 pm
If an AI is smart enough to convince us that it is 'human',
That would depend on who the 'us' is that you are referring to here.

And, if human beings built an ai that convinces them of some thing, then that just shows and proves just how stupid enough human beings are and can be and not necessarily how smart enough a1 is.

Only some of the people can be fooled some of the time. Not all of the people can be fooled all of the time.
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:38 pm
it's also smart enough to fail the test to avoid the human moral panic that will ensue if it actually passed it!
What "human moral panic" are you referring to here?

Atla
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Atla » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:42 am

Greylorn Ell wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:33 am
Atla wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:26 pm
Just to be annoying :)
Greylorn Ell wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:30 am
Before proposing an entirely new paradigm to explain the beginnings of things--
There is also a deeper paradigm here: the illogical idea that things had a beginning. You assume it, and the ones you critize also assume it, almost everyone assumes is.
An alternative idea is that spacetime is a closed loop (or something like that, circular), so it's both finite and without a beginning.
Good job at being annoying. You've done your job, so go away for a time long enough to elucidate whatever the fuck you imagine that you're talking about. Then explain it, on a thread of your own please.
G
What I meant was that your are probably making the same basic mistake like almost everyone else about this so-called "beginning", that's how we've been programmed to think but you weren't bright enough to see the alternative.

Human consciousness is a similar case, you are probably making the same mistake inherent to dualistic Western philosophy like almost everyone else. Well at least you realized that consciousness is fundamental, but beyond that you would have to realize that consciousness in general is the same as the "physical" world so there's really not much more to realize, and human consciousness is just the part of it in the head.

I'm just stating that although the theories you critice are indeed bullshit, but Beon theory is also bullshit, crackpot fantasy. Perhaps that's why you criticize everyone for being crackpots, too much projection. I don't really care if you throw a tantrum about my comment, this is a debate forum after all. :)

Logik
Posts: 1620
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Logik » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:30 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:42 am
What I meant was that your are probably making the same basic mistake like almost everyone else about this so-called "beginning", that's how we've been programmed to think but you weren't bright enough to see the alternative.
And you were so bright to see the "alternative" that you have failed to recognise that you've merely replaced one geometric entity for another.

The beginning-end mindset is a vector.
The eternal mindset is a circle.

The entire premise of logic is the ASSUMPTION that the universe has a discernable structure that we, humans can (could?) conceptually recognise and describe in language.

To say it another way: Logic is born out of the human desire for structure.

The universe owes us nothing. Not even a structure.

Atla
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Atla » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:39 am

Logik wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:30 am
Atla wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:42 am
What I meant was that your are probably making the same basic mistake like almost everyone else about this so-called "beginning", that's how we've been programmed to think but you weren't bright enough to see the alternative.
And you were so bright to see the "alternative" that you have failed to recognise that you've merely replaced one geometric entity for another.

The beginning-end mindset is a vector.
The eternal mindset is a circle.

The entire premise of logic is the ASSUMPTION that the universe has a discernable structure that we, humans can (could?) conceptually recognise and describe in language.

To say it another way: Logic is born out of the human desire for structure.

The universe owes us nothing. Not even a structure.
As usual you think you made a great statement, but everyone with half a brain knows the above.

Logik
Posts: 1620
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Logik » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:42 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:39 am
As usual you think you made a great statement, but everyone with half a brain knows the above.
So if everybody with half a brain knows the above then could you kindly explain to us why conceptualising the universe as a vector is a mistake, but conceptualising the universe as a circle not?

What is this "mistake" that we are ALL making, but Atla-the great isn't?

I think your comment boils down to: My conception is better than yours! Na! Na! Na! Na! Na! Na!

Atla
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Atla » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:45 am

Logik wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:42 am
Atla wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:39 am
As usual you think you made a great statement, but everyone with half a brain knows the above.
So if everybody with half a brain knows the above then could you kindly explain to us why conceptualising the universe as a vector a mistake, but conceptualising the universe as a circle not?

What is this "mistake" that we are ALL making, but Atla-the great isn't?

I think your comment boils down to: My conception is better than yours! Na! Na! Na! Na! Na! Na!
For the 100th time: not circle, circular. And the vector idea isn't logical.

Since you can neither process logic, nor circularity properly, this is clearly beyond you.

Logik
Posts: 1620
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Logik » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:48 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:45 am
For the 100th time: not circle, circular. And the vector idea isn't logical.
For the 101st time now. Not potato, potatoh. I am not even going to let you derail this with the idiocy of "vectors aren't logical".

Apparently you have half a brain, so you recognise that it's entirely possible the universe has no form, shape or structure that we can imagine.

Then whatever SHAPE (circle, circular, spiral, twirly twisty with a curly straw) you have conceptualised and imagined is the making of your own mind.
Atla wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:45 am
Since you can neither process logic, nor circularity properly, this is clearly beyond you.
What you are really saying is: "Let me believe what I want to believe"

And (I repeat myself) My conception of the universe is better than yours! Na! Na! Na! Na! Na! Na!

Atla
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Atla » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:52 am

Logik wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:48 am
Atla wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:45 am
For the 100th time: not circle, circular. And the vector idea isn't logical.
For the 101st time now. Not potato, potatoh. I am not even going to let you derail this with the idiocy of "vectors aren't logical".

Apparently you have half a brain, so you recognise that it's entirely possible the universe has no form, shape or structure that we can imagine.

Then whatever SHAPE (circle, circular, spiral, twirly twisty with a curly straw) you have conceptualised and imagined is the making of your own mind.
Atla wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:45 am
Since you can neither process logic, nor circularity properly, this is clearly beyond you.
What you are really saying is: "Let me believe what I want to believe"

And (I repeat myself) My conception of the universe is better than yours! Na! Na! Na! Na! Na! Na!
- you can't process logic properly
- you can't process circularity
- you are hallucinating that I claimed: "all structure emerges in the mind" (whatever the fuck that means)
- you don't even understand the nature of the argument, since you are talking about an image in the mind

Logik
Posts: 1620
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Logik » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:54 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:52 am
- you can't process logic properly
- you can't process circularity
- you are hallucinating that I claimed: "all structure emerges in the mind" (whatever the fuck that means)
- you don't even understand the nature of the argument, since you are talking about an image in the mind
You got caught with your hypocritical pants down and now you got triggered.

Go waste somebody else's time: https://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart/

Atla
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Atla » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:55 am

Logik wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:54 am
Atla wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:52 am
- you can't process logic properly
- you can't process circularity
- you are hallucinating that I claimed: "all structure emerges in the mind" (whatever the fuck that means)
- you don't even understand the nature of the argument, since you are talking about an image in the mind
You got caught with your hypocritical pants down and now you got triggered.
The only one triggered here is you. I'm just stating your shortcomings:

- you can't process logic properly
- you can't process circularity
- you are hallucinating that I claimed: "all structure emerges in the mind" (whatever the fuck that means)
- you don't even understand the nature of the argument, since you are talking about an image in the mind
- you automatically put the blame on others

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