Dilemma of beginning of time

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bahman
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Dilemma of beginning of time

Post by bahman » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:17 pm

We are discussing two things in here: (1) Time cannot be emergent (cannot have any starting point) and (2) Time cannot be eternal. This leads to a dilemma. We first discuss (1) and then (2).

1) Time is the fundamental variable of any dynamical theory. Time therefore cannot be emergent variable of a dynamical theory since time cannot be emergent and fundamental variable at the same time. Therefore there is no theory that can explain the origin of time, in another word, time cannot have any beginning.

2) Time cannot be eternal since it takes infinite amount of time to reach from eternal past to now.

So here is the dilemma: Time can neither have any beginning nor can be eternal.

Impenitent
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Re: Dilemma of beginning of time

Post by Impenitent » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:37 pm

time started with the first human measurement ...

it ends with the last human measurement...

new moment, new measurement

-Imp

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bahman
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Re: Dilemma of beginning of time

Post by bahman » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:40 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:37 pm
time started with the first human measurement ...

it ends with the last human measurement...

new moment, new measurement

-Imp
We used to experience time since the time we could experience motion of a tiny thing.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Dilemma of beginning of time

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:20 am

bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:17 pm
We are discussing two things in here: (1) Time cannot be emergent (cannot have any starting point) and (2) Time cannot be eternal. This leads to a dilemma. We first discuss (1) and then (2).

1) Time is the fundamental variable of any dynamical theory. Time therefore cannot be emergent variable of a dynamical theory since time cannot be emergent and fundamental variable at the same time. Therefore there is no theory that can explain the origin of time, in another word, time cannot have any beginning.

2) Time cannot be eternal since it takes infinite amount of time to reach from eternal past to now.

So here is the dilemma: Time can neither have any beginning nor can be eternal.
Same as "God can neither have any beginning nor can be eternal."

Time is an emergent with the human conditions. Time emerges along with life and end when there is no life.
It is the same with the 'idea of God' which emerges when triggered by the existential crisis and its impulses.

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bahman
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Re: Dilemma of beginning of time

Post by bahman » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:59 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:20 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:17 pm
We are discussing two things in here: (1) Time cannot be emergent (cannot have any starting point) and (2) Time cannot be eternal. This leads to a dilemma. We first discuss (1) and then (2).

1) Time is the fundamental variable of any dynamical theory. Time therefore cannot be emergent variable of a dynamical theory since time cannot be emergent and fundamental variable at the same time. Therefore there is no theory that can explain the origin of time, in another word, time cannot have any beginning.

2) Time cannot be eternal since it takes infinite amount of time to reach from eternal past to now.

So here is the dilemma: Time can neither have any beginning nor can be eternal.
Same as "God can neither have any beginning nor can be eternal."

Time is an emergent with the human conditions. Time emerges along with life and end when there is no life.
It is the same with the 'idea of God' which emerges when triggered by the existential crisis and its impulses.
Well, the point is how could you have anything if there is no beginning for time.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Dilemma of beginning of time

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:46 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:17 pm
We are discussing two things in here: (1) Time cannot be emergent (cannot have any starting point) and (2) Time cannot be eternal. This leads to a dilemma. We first discuss (1) and then (2).

1) Time is the fundamental variable of any dynamical theory. Time therefore cannot be emergent variable of a dynamical theory since time cannot be emergent and fundamental variable at the same time. Therefore there is no theory that can explain the origin of time, in another word, time cannot have any beginning.

2) Time cannot be eternal since it takes infinite amount of time to reach from eternal past to now.

So here is the dilemma: Time can neither have any beginning nor can be eternal.
Where's uwot? He should have something to say about this.

My answer is that you try and speak of a topic that is very much above the heads of all humans. The word theory comes to mind. Which doesn’t mean that one can't state musings on such topics. But then one shouldn't take it so seriously! Unless of course they have a scientifically peer reviewed theory to share. There is no necessary way to prove anything about, so called, time, so it's a moot topic.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Dilemma of beginning of time

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:53 am

bahman wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:59 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:20 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:17 pm
We are discussing two things in here: (1) Time cannot be emergent (cannot have any starting point) and (2) Time cannot be eternal. This leads to a dilemma. We first discuss (1) and then (2).

1) Time is the fundamental variable of any dynamical theory. Time therefore cannot be emergent variable of a dynamical theory since time cannot be emergent and fundamental variable at the same time. Therefore there is no theory that can explain the origin of time, in another word, time cannot have any beginning.

2) Time cannot be eternal since it takes infinite amount of time to reach from eternal past to now.

So here is the dilemma: Time can neither have any beginning nor can be eternal.
Same as "God can neither have any beginning nor can be eternal."

Time is an emergent with the human conditions. Time emerges along with life and end when there is no life.
It is the same with the 'idea of God' which emerges when triggered by the existential crisis and its impulses.
Well, the point is how could you have anything if there is no beginning for time.
You can't play God here and insist you are omniscient.

The reality is we should start with everything we have on hand and work backward to the point of knowledge our experience and reason can substantiate it.

The point is;
  • -'beginning' is a linguistic matter.
    -Linguistic system are invented by humans.
    -there is no absolute meaning of words independent of humans.
    - the term 'beginning' cannot represent anything absolute.
    -therefore it would be more realistic to start with the real and work inward to the most subtlest real.
To start with 'what is the beginning of time' is unrealistic and thus moot.

To be realistic we have to start with the reality that humans are dealing with time.
So realistically we need to establish the most realistic ground for time by exploring real time as understood in the present reality.

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bahman
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Re: Dilemma of beginning of time

Post by bahman » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:40 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:46 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:17 pm
We are discussing two things in here: (1) Time cannot be emergent (cannot have any starting point) and (2) Time cannot be eternal. This leads to a dilemma. We first discuss (1) and then (2).

1) Time is the fundamental variable of any dynamical theory. Time therefore cannot be emergent variable of a dynamical theory since time cannot be emergent and fundamental variable at the same time. Therefore there is no theory that can explain the origin of time, in another word, time cannot have any beginning.

2) Time cannot be eternal since it takes infinite amount of time to reach from eternal past to now.

So here is the dilemma: Time can neither have any beginning nor can be eternal.
Where's uwot? He should have something to say about this.

My answer is that you try and speak of a topic that is very much above the heads of all humans. The word theory comes to mind. Which doesn’t mean that one can't state musings on such topics. But then one shouldn't take it so seriously! Unless of course they have a scientifically peer reviewed theory to share. There is no necessary way to prove anything about, so called, time, so it's a moot topic.
What is uwot?

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Dilemma of beginning of time

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:45 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:40 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:46 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:17 pm
We are discussing two things in here: (1) Time cannot be emergent (cannot have any starting point) and (2) Time cannot be eternal. This leads to a dilemma. We first discuss (1) and then (2).

1) Time is the fundamental variable of any dynamical theory. Time therefore cannot be emergent variable of a dynamical theory since time cannot be emergent and fundamental variable at the same time. Therefore there is no theory that can explain the origin of time, in another word, time cannot have any beginning.

2) Time cannot be eternal since it takes infinite amount of time to reach from eternal past to now.

So here is the dilemma: Time can neither have any beginning nor can be eternal.
Where's uwot? He should have something to say about this.

My answer is that you try and speak of a topic that is very much above the heads of all humans. The word theory comes to mind. Which doesn’t mean that one can't state musings on such topics. But then one shouldn't take it so seriously! Unless of course they have a scientifically peer reviewed theory to share. There is no necessary way to prove anything about, so called, time, so it's a moot topic.
What is uwot?
Oh, so you're either a relative newbie, just being nasty, or haven't had the pleasure of engaging him. He's a student of physics that enjoys talking about it to a very large degree, though he may be getting tired or have better life things to do. Your loss as I'm sure he'd be capable of giving you something to think about.

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bahman
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Re: Dilemma of beginning of time

Post by bahman » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:49 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:53 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:59 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:20 am

Same as "God can neither have any beginning nor can be eternal."

Time is an emergent with the human conditions. Time emerges along with life and end when there is no life.
It is the same with the 'idea of God' which emerges when triggered by the existential crisis and its impulses.
Well, the point is how could you have anything if there is no beginning for time.
You can't play God here and insist you are omniscient.

The reality is we should start with everything we have on hand and work backward to the point of knowledge our experience and reason can substantiate it.

The point is;
  • -'beginning' is a linguistic matter.
    -Linguistic system are invented by humans.
    -there is no absolute meaning of words independent of humans.
    - the term 'beginning' cannot represent anything absolute.
    -therefore it would be more realistic to start with the real and work inward to the most subtlest real.
To start with 'what is the beginning of time' is unrealistic and thus moot.

To be realistic we have to start with the reality that humans are dealing with time.
So realistically we need to establish the most realistic ground for time by exploring real time as understood in the present reality.
Was there a point that there was no human and things were in motion?

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bahman
Posts: 2087
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Re: Dilemma of beginning of time

Post by bahman » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:51 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:45 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:40 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:46 pm

Where's uwot? He should have something to say about this.

My answer is that you try and speak of a topic that is very much above the heads of all humans. The word theory comes to mind. Which doesn’t mean that one can't state musings on such topics. But then one shouldn't take it so seriously! Unless of course they have a scientifically peer reviewed theory to share. There is no necessary way to prove anything about, so called, time, so it's a moot topic.
What is uwot?
Oh, so you're either a relative newbie, just being nasty, or haven't had the pleasure of engaging him. He's a student of physics that enjoys talking about it to a very large degree, though he may be getting tired or have better life things to do. Your loss as I'm sure he'd be capable of giving you something to think about.
That would be great if I can talk with him.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Dilemma of beginning of time

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:25 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:51 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:45 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:40 pm

What is uwot?
Oh, so you're either a relative newbie, just being nasty, or haven't had the pleasure of engaging him. He's a student of physics that enjoys talking about it to a very large degree, though he may be getting tired or have better life things to do. Your loss as I'm sure he'd be capable of giving you something to think about.
That would be great if I can talk with him.
In the past he's popped in every once in a while, I'll keep an eye out for him.

AlexW
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Re: Dilemma of beginning of time

Post by AlexW » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:42 am

bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:40 pm
We used to experience time since the time we could experience motion of a tiny thing.
You never really "experience time". All you ever experience is a thought about a state of affairs that states that something has once been different compared to how things are now.
This thought happens now, it only references a previous now, and by doing so it seems to create something called "time". But just like a word is not the thing - and furthermore: it cannot create a real thing, it can only create the idea of a thing - also the thought can and will never create a real experience.

The "experience of motion of a tiny thing" is as such not primary to the "experience of time" - it is the memory/thought of such a previous state that is primary and as such the mother of time.

Now ask yourself:
Can something that is purely based on thought (on memory) be eternal? No!
Can it be a "fundamental variable of any dynamical theory"? Yes! As any "dynamical theory" is again only possible when thought is at play. Remove thought and all theories as well as time simply vanish - poooof - gone :-)

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 1808
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Dilemma of beginning of time

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:45 am

bahman wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:49 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:53 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:59 pm

Well, the point is how could you have anything if there is no beginning for time.
You can't play God here and insist you are omniscient.

The reality is we should start with everything we have on hand and work backward to the point of knowledge our experience and reason can substantiate it.

The point is;
  • -'beginning' is a linguistic matter.
    -Linguistic system are invented by humans.
    -there is no absolute meaning of words independent of humans.
    - the term 'beginning' cannot represent anything absolute.
    -therefore it would be more realistic to start with the real and work inward to the most subtlest real.
To start with 'what is the beginning of time' is unrealistic and thus moot.

To be realistic we have to start with the reality that humans are dealing with time.
So realistically we need to establish the most realistic ground for time by exploring real time as understood in the present reality.
Was there a point that there was no human and things were in motion?
No.
No humans = no "things" and no "motion" which are supposedly human realizations.

To be realistic we have to start with the real, i.e. whence humans cognize reality.
Note Meno's 'how can you know something when you do not know what it is in the first place'
The most efficient is to start from "Know Thyself" and from what the self knows.

Atla
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Re: Dilemma of beginning of time

Post by Atla » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:47 am

bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:17 pm
We are discussing two things in here: (1) Time cannot be emergent (cannot have any starting point) and (2) Time cannot be eternal. This leads to a dilemma. We first discuss (1) and then (2).

1) Time is the fundamental variable of any dynamical theory. Time therefore cannot be emergent variable of a dynamical theory since time cannot be emergent and fundamental variable at the same time. Therefore there is no theory that can explain the origin of time, in another word, time cannot have any beginning.

2) Time cannot be eternal since it takes infinite amount of time to reach from eternal past to now.

So here is the dilemma: Time can neither have any beginning nor can be eternal.
The only known resolution to the dilemma is the idea that time is circular, in other words spacetime is a closed loop.

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