Metaphysics is Not 'Beyond Physics'

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surreptitious57
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Re: Metaphysics is Not 'Beyond Physics'

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:07 pm

Rules can either be untested axioms that are nonetheless taken to be true or truth statements derived from logic
In the first example they are only useful until the point at which they become falsified and have to be abandoned

All logic systems need axioms or rules to give them validity or soundness
Without them they lack rigour and consistency and can serve no purpose

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RCSaunders
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Re: Metaphysics is Not 'Beyond Physics'

Post by RCSaunders » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:03 pm

Belinda wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:35 pm
Logic is a separate branch of philosophy from metaphysics.
Right!

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Re: Metaphysics is Not 'Beyond Physics'

Post by RCSaunders » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:14 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:58 pm
It is possible to study logic and avoid metaphysics but not the other way around. Metaphysics is a science of logic.
It is not possible to successfully study anything without correct reasoning, including metaphysics, but metaphysics is not a science (which is the study of that which can be perceived). Metaphysics identifies what is meant by existence, reality, and the ultimate nature of existence. For example, "reality is that which exists and has the nature it does independently of anyone's consciousness or knowledge of it," is a metaphysical statement. "Everything that exists must have some attribute and a things attributes are what it is," is an ontological (sub-set of metaphysics) statement.

The philosophical fields of metaphysics and ontology are pretty-much total failures.

PeteJ
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Re: Metaphysics is Not 'Beyond Physics'

Post by PeteJ » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:14 pm
The philosophical fields of metaphysics and ontology are pretty-much total failures.
In the academic world they are, and I wish more people would recognise this. Then they might start wondering why.

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bahman
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Re: Metaphysics is Not 'Beyond Physics'

Post by bahman » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:41 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:48 am
It is often claimed by many that 'metaphysics' = beyond physics.
As the SEP article explained, it is not the case;
The word ‘metaphysics’ is notoriously hard to define.
Twentieth-century coinages like ‘meta-language’ and ‘metaphilosophy’ encourage the impression that metaphysics is a study that somehow “goes beyond” physics, a study devoted to matters that transcend the mundane concerns of Newton and Einstein and Heisenberg.
This impression is mistaken.

The word ‘metaphysics’ is derived from a collective title of the fourteen books by Aristotle that we currently think of as making up Aristotle's Metaphysics. Aristotle himself did not know the word. (He had four names for the branch of philosophy that is the subject-matter of Metaphysics: ‘first philosophy’, ‘first science’, ‘wisdom’, and ‘theology’.)
At least one hundred years after Aristotle's death, an editor of his works (in all probability, Andronicus of Rhodes) titled those fourteen books “Ta meta ta phusika”—“the after the physicals” or “the ones after the physical ones”—the “physical ones” being the books contained in what we now call Aristotle's Physics.

The title was probably meant to warn students of Aristotle's philosophy that they should attempt Metaphysics only after they had mastered “the physical ones”, the books about nature or the natural world—that is to say, about change, for change is the defining feature of the natural world.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/metaphysics/
Comments?
If physics is a field of study which describes reality then there is no room left for metaphysics.

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Re: Metaphysics is Not 'Beyond Physics'

Post by PeteJ » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:30 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:41 am
If physics is a field of study which describes reality then there is no room left for metaphysics.
Quite so. But physics does not study or describe Reality, It studies appearances.

In the Matrix were physicists able to prove they were in the Matrix? Physics in the Matrix looks exactly like physics in our world and this is because the empirical sciences study appearances only. These are an aspect of Reality, of course, but superficial.

The fields of study that study and describe Reality are metaphysics and mysticism. Physics does not even have a method to test Materialism.

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bahman
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Re: Metaphysics is Not 'Beyond Physics'

Post by bahman » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:12 am

PeteJ wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:30 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:41 am
If physics is a field of study which describes reality then there is no room left for metaphysics.
Quite so. But physics does not study or describe Reality, It studies appearances.

In the Matrix were physicists able to prove they were in the Matrix? Physics in the Matrix looks exactly like physics in our world and this is because the empirical sciences study appearances only. These are an aspect of Reality, of course, but superficial.

The fields of study that study and describe Reality are metaphysics and mysticism. Physics does not even have a method to test Materialism.
Then you need to show that there is a underlying reality.

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Re: Metaphysics is Not 'Beyond Physics'

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:49 am

bahman wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:12 am
Then you need to show that there is a underlying reality.
Close your eyes! Imagine things. Imagine a unicorn. Imagine something nobody has ever imagined before!
Remember your fondest childhood memories. Remember that delicious meal you had last week.

That's Metaphysics. That's "The Construct".

Now express what you imagined. Describe it to me. Draw it to me. Paint it for me. Re-create what you imagined so that I can experience it too.

That's creativity - language, logic, art, poetry, music, sculpture, scientific models, invention, spirituality, systems, societies, governments, schools, books, religions, deities.

All of it - created!

The language to talk about the concepts of atoms, quarks, molecules, physics, processes, evolution, organisms, morality, humanity, ethics, ontology, metaphysics, science and philosophy.

Created!

All thanks to metaphysics.

The process of manifestation off the metaphysical to the physical.
That's creation, creativity. And if you so feel like it - creationism.

Knowledge is the product of metaphysics.

Least you forged that you are a physical being in a physical universe - your metaphysic is the product of physics.
bahman wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:41 am
If physics is a field of study which describes reality then there is no room left for metaphysics.
There is plenty of room for metaphysics! A part of the reality (humans!) is trying to describe reality!

A part of reality is trying to describe itself. It's beautiful.

PeteJ
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Re: Metaphysics is Not 'Beyond Physics'

Post by PeteJ » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:23 pm

bahman wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:12 am
Then you need to show that there is a underlying reality.
Is it not rather obvious?

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Re: Metaphysics is Not 'Beyond Physics'

Post by PeteJ » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:32 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:49 am
Close your eyes! Imagine things. Imagine a unicorn. Imagine something nobody has ever imagined before!
Remember your fondest childhood memories. Remember that delicious meal you had last week.

That's Metaphysics. That's "The Construct".
What an astonishing idea. The dictionary is the place to discover what metaphysics is. Why on earth would someone think it is anything other than whet the dictionary says it is?

bahman wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:41 am
If physics is a field of study which describes reality then there is no room left for metaphysics.
There is plenty of room for metaphysics! A part of the reality (humans!) is trying to describe reality!

A part of reality is trying to describe itself. It's beautiful.
[/quote]
Bahnman's words are correct. You are endorsing scientism, which leaves no room for metaphysics. If you cannot see this then I can easily understand why you do not study metaphysics. Unicorns indeed.

PeteJ
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Re: Metaphysics is Not 'Beyond Physics'

Post by PeteJ » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:40 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:49 am
Close your eyes! Imagine things. Imagine a unicorn. Imagine something nobody has ever imagined before!
Remember your fondest childhood memories. Remember that delicious meal you had last week.

That's Metaphysics. That's "The Construct".
What a strange idea. The dictionary is the place to discover what metaphysics is. Why do you think it is anything other than what the dictionary says it is?

Bahman sums up the situation when he notes that if physics is a field of study which describes reality then there is no room left for metaphysics. Physics studies a small part of Reality, the part that appears to our physical senses. This is why we have something called philosophy. The idea that physics studies Reality contradicts its definition. It has nothing to say about the nature of Reality other than that it includes the appearance of subjects and objects. It doesn't even study space-time in depth, a topic dictionaries usually list as metaphysical.

Skepdick
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Re: Metaphysics is Not 'Beyond Physics'

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:59 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:32 pm
Bahnman's words are correct. You are endorsing scientism, which leaves no room for metaphysics. If you cannot see this then I can easily understand why you do not study metaphysics. Unicorns indeed.
No. I am endorsing monism first and foremost. As an ideal, if not as a fact.
Or as you seem to call it - Perennial philosophy. I agree with the notion of a single, unified metaphysical truth.

But the fact remains - we have multiple schools of metaphysics which have invented their own language to talk about metaphysics.
And so it would be idiotic if we ended up having an argument over whether Monism or Perennial philosophy is true.

They are preaching the same truth! The Monad in Monism corresponds to The One.

Having agreed to Monism a.k.a Perennial philosophy as our point of departure, then splitting up reality into ANY two categories is a contradiction of Monism. Such as Physics vs Metaphysics.

So no, I am not endorsing scientism over metaphysics.
Nor am I endorsing metaphysics over physics.

I am endorsing for the reconciliation of those two perspectives.
Being able to explain physics from a metaphysical viewpoint.
Being able to explain metaphysics from a physical viewpoint.

Finally being able to unify both of those fields into a single theory. Which - I have done for myself, but you are probably not going to agree with it.

I subscribe to Digital philosophy which is the source of my digital metaphysic.
While I also subscribe to digital physics.

And so the one unifying 'substance' of the universe is information. Voila. Monism!
Or confirmation bias - depending on how you look at it. Because my background is in computation after all...

I can even show you an actual Monad e.g The One (again - you aren't going to like it). It's not what you think it is.
It's just language
Last edited by Skepdick on Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Skepdick
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Re: Metaphysics is Not 'Beyond Physics'

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:03 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:40 pm
What a strange idea. The dictionary is the place to discover what metaphysics is. Why do you think it is anything other than what the dictionary says it is?
Isn't it a logical fallacy to appeal to an authority? The dictionary is descriptive, not prescriptive.

The dictionary is certainly not supposed to tell you how your imagination works. To force dictionary upon a poet would be to murder their soul.

The dictionary is a polite suggestion, which I am happy to ignore, because I am well aware of Linguistic relativity and I consciously choose not to allow other people's language to affect my thought-patterns.
Last edited by Skepdick on Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

PeteJ
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Re: Metaphysics is Not 'Beyond Physics'

Post by PeteJ » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:17 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:03 pm
I consciously choose not to allow other people's language to affect my thought-patterns.
Yes, I can see this.

Skepdick
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Re: Metaphysics is Not 'Beyond Physics'

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:18 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:17 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:03 pm
I consciously choose not to allow other people's language to affect my thought-patterns.
Yes, I can see this.
You are very observant.

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