An argument in favor of free will

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Logik
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Re: An argument in favor of free will

Post by Logik » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:29 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:04 pm
Flipping a coin twice is not a solution to this problem.
Why not?

Here is a generic algorithm that randomly selects 1 out of N options: https://repl.it/repls/SecondaryPaltryAu ... tionsystem

Update N to your liking.

What could possibly prevent me from flipping a coin N times?

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bahman
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Re: An argument in favor of free will

Post by bahman » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:06 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:29 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:04 pm
Flipping a coin twice is not a solution to this problem.
Why not?

Here is a generic algorithm that randomly selects 1 out of N options: https://repl.it/repls/SecondaryPaltryAu ... tionsystem

Update N to your liking.

What could possibly prevent me from flipping a coin N times?
Just think of a moment that you put yourself in a mental state just focusing on options (and nothing else) while the options are indifferent to you.

Logik
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Re: An argument in favor of free will

Post by Logik » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:09 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:06 pm
Just think of a moment that you put yourself in a mental state just focusing on options (and nothing else) while the options are indifferent to you.
You need to give me an example. I have many systems in place to prevent analysis paralysis. if I don't have an answer in the moment, at the very least I a good at devising strategies to get an answer. An experiment...

To put it another way. I am never the person who doesn't know what they want to eat at a restaurant.
People who can't decide for 15 minutes piss me off.

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bahman
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Re: An argument in favor of free will

Post by bahman » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:23 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:09 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:06 pm
Just think of a moment that you put yourself in a mental state just focusing on options (and nothing else) while the options are indifferent to you.
You need to give me an example. I have many systems in place to prevent analysis paralysis. if I don't have an answer in the moment, at the very least I a good at devising strategies to get an answer. An experiment...

To put it another way. I am never the person who doesn't know what they want to eat at a restaurant.
People who can't decide for 15 minutes piss me off.
Picking up vanilla versus chocolate ice cream.

Logik
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Re: An argument in favor of free will

Post by Logik » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:47 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:23 pm
Picking up vanilla versus chocolate ice cream.
Well, I have faced this 'dilemma' many a times.

The very fact that I am not presently stuck in front of an icecream stand, paralyzed with indecision should tell you that I have managed to resolve the "dillema". Somehow.

Usually it's resolved by buying one of each.

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bahman
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Re: An argument in favor of free will

Post by bahman » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:34 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:47 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:23 pm
Picking up vanilla versus chocolate ice cream.
Well, I have faced this 'dilemma' many a times.

The very fact that I am not presently stuck in front of an icecream stand, paralyzed with indecision should tell you that I have managed to resolve the "dillema". Somehow.

Usually it's resolved by buying one of each.
Well, the point that you resolve the situation is the point that you freely decide. This cannot be done by a deterministic agent.

Logik
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Re: An argument in favor of free will

Post by Logik » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:52 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:34 pm
Well, the point that you resolve the situation is the point that you freely decide. This cannot be done by a deterministic agent.
I don't know what the difference is between a "free" decision and a "non-free" decision. A trolley problem? You still get to choose how many people to kill!

The point is - that there was a fork in the road. I went one way where I could've gone another.

A decision was made. Whereas you could sit and ponder which road to take for eternity. Not only that, but in your thought experiment - I found a 3rd option where you only saw 2.

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bahman
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Re: An argument in favor of free will

Post by bahman » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:03 am

Logik wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:52 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:34 pm
Well, the point that you resolve the situation is the point that you freely decide. This cannot be done by a deterministic agent.
I don't know what the difference is between a "free" decision and a "non-free" decision. A trolley problem? You still get to choose how many people to kill!

The point is - that there was a fork in the road. I went one way where I could've gone another.

A decision was made. Whereas you could sit and ponder which road to take for eternity. Not only that, but in your thought experiment - I found a 3rd option where you only saw 2.
You either follow a chain of causality or you decide after you are halted by a situation. There is no such a thing as non-free decision.

Logik
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Re: An argument in favor of free will

Post by Logik » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:12 am

bahman wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:03 am
You either follow a chain of causality or you decide after you are halted by a situation.
Yes - there are intrinsic causal factors and extrinsic causal factors.

The intrinsic ones is what I call "wants" or "desires".

The extrinsic ones are what I call "incentives".

That there are 10 icecream stands between my home and my office does not mean I am going to buy 10 icecreams.

Some days I don't buy any. Because I don't want icecream.

Dimebag
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Re: An argument in favor of free will

Post by Dimebag » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:55 am

The unconscious mind is great at filtering out unnecessary information. In a case where you had a choice between two things which were exactly the same, your unconscious mind would see no choice as there would be no real reason to consider an alternative to its initial inclination. It would make a selection based on habit, and no conflict would arise. The whole point of the unconscious mind is that it will produce action which is learned and practiced. If it came to a conflict between two options, you would become conscious of the conflict, but only because the two options were different, I.e. novel. Novelty requires consciousness, sameness and expectation allows unconscious habit to produce action.

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