Free agent cannot be created

So what's really going on?

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Age
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:28 am

bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:33 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:21 pm

Animals, plants, even elementary particles, etc.
In other words EVERY thing, or EVERY physical thing, is either one correct?
Every thing only. To me physical is caused by Mind/Minds/minds.
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:33 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:21 pm

Ok, let's leave that aside for now. At the end we should discuss the subject of this thread too.
I think the only real difference between what 'you' and 'I' see here is;
You see, There are many free agents that can not be created. Whereas,
I see, There is only One free agent that always exists.
There are at least two free agents.
Are you using the word 'are' here, like this is the one and only absolute Truth?
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
One who is you who cause certain things which you are aware you do. The rest of changes can be assigned to another free agent.
But before you said there is a Mind, Minds, or minds, which is the free agent/s, within EVERY thing.

Now, if EVERY thing has a free agent within it, then the chances of there being one free agent in this body and "another" separate but just one more free agent in absolutely EVERY other body, seems very highly unlikely, to me.

By the way, when you wrote: One who is you who cause certain things which you are aware you do. is NOT a free agent. This one [the 'you'], which is just a small 'i', who is 'me', IS just the thoughts and emotions, within this body. This one is NOT a free agent because 'i' only exist because of the body that 'i' am in, and, because of the past experiences that this body has experienced. 'i', therefore, am created, just like every thing else is, except for that what is NOT created, that is; the Free Agent, sometimes known as by the Mind, and, the Universe Itself.

The 'I', as in the question 'Who am 'I'?', is A Free Agent. This 'I', of which there is only One of, exists always, can NOT be created, and is a Truly Free Agent. This is the same One that exists within EVERY thing and which causes/creates EVERY thing, the way It is, through ALL physical matter, to me anyway.
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:33 pm
The trouble I have is YOUR 'free agents' come into and out existence, and thus they are created, and then they disappear. They are like the X that is caused into Y, when the X disappears.
His mind does not come into and out of existence.
Who is the one you are referring to now as 'his'?
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
His mind simply exists.
Who's mind, supposedly, simply exists. And, why is this 'who' referred to as a 'he'?
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
He only as a being/thing comes into and out of existence because he comes into and out of a body.
Are you sure this is helping to clarify things here? Even with yourself?

There really is a much more simpler and easier way to explain ALL of this, and with precise clear language. However, you want to keep insisting and BELIEVING that there ARE at least two minds/free agents existing. So, I will leave you to this BELIEF.
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:33 pm
MY 'free Agent', which always exists and thus is NOT created, observes ALL of this happening, and also KNOWS how it ALL evolves and thus is also ALL caused/created.
I understand what you are saying. But I am sure that we can agree on the fact that you are in charge of certain changes.
The 'you' is NOT in charge ABSOLUTELY. The 'you' is in charge up to a certain point, and of only a VERY minuscule amount of things, if nothing really at all if in the scheme of things is looked at. The 'you' is only in charge of the behavior of the body that the 'you' is in, which in saying that does have a 'knock-on' effect with other bodies, but for precision the word 'you' I use for the person, who exists within A human body.

As I had previously mentioned, when ALL the words are defined more precisely and accurately, which really is NOT much different at all from what the dictionaries already state, then EVERY thing falls into place together to form a crystal clear big picture of ALL-THERE-IS.
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
There should exist at least one more free agent who is in charge of the rest of changes.
If this is how things SHOULD exist, then just SHOW us all HOW.

From what I SEE, want to share, and explain, just one Free Agent is suffice, and works much better, more easily and far more simply. But you might KNOW better and can better explain HOW at least two free agents cause and created the Universe, the way it is.
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
So there is at least two free agents in here unless you claim that the fact that you are in charge of certain changes is an illusion.
You TRIED this ASSUMED assumption before, and it did NOT work last time.

WHY does it have to be this ASSUMPTION or THERE SHOULD EXIST at least two free agents? Why can there NOT be other conclusions?

Also, your premise that THERE SHOULD EXIST, does NOT automatically logically lead to and conclude SO THERE IS AT LEAST TWO FREE AGENTS.

What is your evidence for at least two free agents.

From what I have SEEN, you are only TRYING TO back up and support an already held BELIEF, within that body.
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:33 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:21 pm

I think that is capacity of human's brain which allows all sort of thing which you mentioned.
So, to you, it is the capacity of human brain that is OPEN, and is thus therefore the 'free agent', which you talk about here, is this correct?
Human is a mind and a body.
You really will have to just pick one definition for things, and not keep changing them on the go, if you really want those ideas, views, thoughts, beliefs, et cetera accepted and agreed with.

There IS an actual very specific defined language that will demonstrate and SHOW what it is that you are TRYING TO show here.
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
His body is however made of cells and atoms and electrons, etc. each has its own mind.
As I have said I totally accept and agree that there is one Mind, within EVERY thing, but now I have to question who is this 'he' in the presupposition that has "his body"? I am also wonder WHY is it a 'he'?
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
We are able to do all sort of things that you mentioned because of the way that these minds are working together.
Who is the 'we' you are referring to here?

And, when object X for example changes into object Y, and thus one mind MUST OF also changed into another mind or one mind died and another mind reemerged, then how can these minds, which would obviously NOT even KNOW of the long gone minds, be able to actually work together?
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
Our brains are OPEN because of how our brains are structured.
How are "our" brains structured?

Who/what is 'our'?

Who/what is 'we'?

Why when there are BELIEFS brains are NOT open and can be very much CLOSED?
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:33 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:21 pm
Mind is simple entity as I defined.
Yes, you defined 'mind' as the essence of 'me' and 'me' is the being/thing of EVERY object. There are therefore as many 'minds' as there are objects, and these 'minds' only come into existence when there is an object, which by the way ALL and EVERY object IS CREATED. Therefore, meaning EVERY 'me' IS also CREATED. Now, WHERE is the supposed 'free agent' that is supposedly NOT created?
Your mind is not created.
Who is the 'your' that you are referring to here?

The word 'your' also implies ownership, so who/what is or could be this owner of 'mind'?

How can the essence of 'me' be 'mind', which you say is how things are, but 'me' is, supposedly, created and 'mind' is not. Either there is one Mind in EVERY thing, which can be the essence of EVERY thing/being, or, if there are at least two different minds, as you propose there are, and each physical object is 'me' AND ALL objects come into existence and then fade away, then when these 'me's' come into existence and then exist so to must those different 'minds' of 'me's'?
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
The physical that you are attached to it is created.
Yes I agree, but you are the one saying there are different 'minds', which are separately attached or the different essence of different physical objects.
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:33 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:21 pm
The way that minds are structured in case of human's brain allow them to cause fantastic range of thoughts.
How can 'minds' be STRUCTURED differently if they are supposedly 'free agents that are NOT created'?
The way that 'minds' are connected together make an object what it is.
What is the way that 'minds' are supposedly connected together?

Also, are you absolutely positively 100% sure that what you are saying about 'minds' IS True, Right, and Correct?
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:33 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:21 pm

By Mind I mean the supreme which is not absolutely powerful.
Well then, by definition, it is NOT supreme.
Well, if you define supreme as absolute power then it does not exist.
Why do you think or believe that 'absolute power' does NOT exist?

Your 'if/then' sentence does not logically follow.
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
If you define supreme as the strongest who exists right now then supreme exists.
We could define 'supreme' as the strongest who exists right NOW. 'NOW' being the eternal NOW.

This supreme One, with absolute power, exists eternally NOW. It is because of this One that the Universe IS Created the way It IS, eternally NOW.
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:33 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:21 pm
This, power which unbound, is discussed in another thread, Mind or minds.
Your explanation in that discussion, to me, does NOT logically follow.
I already answer to all your questions in another thread. Let's hope that things work out.
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:33 pm


So, 'me' is EVERY thing, is this right?
No. There exist many 'me', such as me and you.
So, 'me' is mind and body/physical, and, so is 'you' mind and body/physical, also.

Now explain how 'we', me and you, are connected and working together here.

To Me, 'me' and 'you' appear to be having VERY DIFFERENT ideas about how many Mind/minds there are, and NOT really working together at all here.

My view is that I can explain very specifically and in great minute detail how there is only one Mind, which will also explain how the Mind and the brain work together, and through this working together then how a Truly peaceful harmonious world CAN BE created for everyone to live in together.

Whereas, your view is that there are more than one mind, but when I ask you clarify this so that EVERYONE could understand this view better, you appear, to me anyway, NOT to be clearing things up at all really.
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:33 pm


Wait for My definition of WHAT exactly?
How do you define a being, yourself for example?
Just for the moment let us disregard the word 'yourself', as this can be a very tricky word to understand fully. But anyway how i define 'being' can be in two ways;
1. There is 'being', small b, this is the word in the term 'human being' for example. I class the 'human' part of this as the physical human body, and the 'being' part as the thoughts and the emotions in that physical body. The thoughts and emotions are obviously invisible to the human physical eye, so they can be related to the 'being' part of a 'human being'. This 'being' is also the person, or personality, part. Or, also the self. This self is NOT who one really IS, but this self is who one THINKS they are. This self is individual and different and held within the individual and different brains.

2. There is 'Being', big B, this is the absolute and True Self. This is ultimate answer to the question Who am 'I'? question. The answer to this question IS KNOWN to be Right when absolutely EVERY thing is in agreement with thee answer. This Self is a collective of ALL-THERE-IS. This is what I refer to as thee One and only Mind.
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:41 am
You seem to have your own definitions, which appear to be unchangeable.
Yes.
Well there is NO use in us discussing any more.
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:41 am


You are confusing this again.

Has there been always 'something' OR 'some things' who have witnessed things and had caused changes?
Yes, there has been always 'some things' who have witnessed things and had caused changes.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:41 am
If just one letter is missed, out of place, or incorrect, then the WHOLE sentence, paragraph, argument, and/or story IS changed.
Sorry for that.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:41 am


What is wrong is; you are some times saying there are MANY witnesses (minds) and some times you say/imply, like now, that there is only A (or one) Witness.

A conclusion, which follows on from premises, are more easily accepted if it REMAINS the SAME.
I see. I use single witness when I want to argue the argument about change, the argument that there is a mind because there is a change. We have witnesses, at least two, when it comes to the whole picture, in another word the universe.
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am


If the definition that you provided is the BEST and MOST FAVORABLE optimal definition, then that is it. There is NO other real/better definition, for you. End of story.
I hope that we can reach to a conclusion that my definition is good enough.
From My perspective your definitions are NOT even close to being good enough, YET.

But since you said that your definitions are unchangeable, then that is what they are, and so be it.
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am


You missed my point again. This is NOT your fault, but mine. I still have a LONG way to go in my learning how to communicate better.
I think I should have been more specific and elaborated more.
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am

There is NO need for me to do this as I am NOT disagreeing with you, besides the Mind/minds issue. I am just TRYING TO show, in far more greater detail, HOW what you are saying here IS actually True, Right, and Correct.
I see.
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am


Already agreed with from the outset. Also agreed with is that 'A' mind is needed. 'A' infers One.
Great.
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am


Are you absolutely sure of this?
So the whole picture as I should elaborated is like this. I first consider a change in a system and argue that a mind is needed for that change. I then argue that in the universe there are at least two minds because there are changes.
I KNOW what you are arguing for. My question remains WHY do you think or BELIEVE that there NEEDS to be at least two minds?

Two minds makes what you are TRYING TO argue for NOT sound, NOT valid, and NOT logical, at all, from my perspective.
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am


All sounds very confusing.
Why?
Because why would 'i' be privileged enough to have one of these at least two minds, and EVERY one else has to share the other mind, AND, if there is one completely separate mind for each completely separate particle of matter, then that infers that each mind comes into existence and out of existence with each particle of matter, thus each of these minds MUST therefore be created also, with each created particle of matter.

If you do NOT want what your saying to sound so confusing, then at least clear this part up; How many minds are there?

(Also, on some very quick reflection I can now SEE how there could be as many minds as there are particles of matter. But you will still NEED some explaining to do).
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm

They have three main problems: (1) How matter activity can give rise to consciousness (matter is unconscious so where consciousness comes from, I have an argument that emergence is impossible),
Would you care to share this argument?
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
(2) Why consciousness exists (why things don't evolve in dark)
Would you care to elaborate?
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
and (3) The problem of free will (I have an argument for that).
Firstly, what is the, supposed, "problem" of free will? And, would you care to share that argument also?

Also, do ALL of your arguments fit together perfectly soundly and validly, and so that EVERY one CAN agree with them?

If no, then just maybe your arguments need some work done on them.

Are you aware that your arguments would have to sound, valid arguments, which if they were, then they would SHOW an unambiguous fact that could NOT be dispute, and thus could NOT be refuted by absolutely ANY thing, anyway. ALL you would be doing is just SHOWING thee Truth.

When you have those TYPES of arguments, then I would be VERY EXCITED to SEE them, as it is SHOWING HOW it is possible to FIND and SEE thee Truth, by thy self, that I am just learning how to express better. If you have those types of arguments, then I do NOT need to do anymore study in learning how to communicate better. I could just go and really enjoy Life/Living and just let you expose thee Truth in and with those irrefutable arguments.
bahman wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:22 pm
Yes, my fault.


Great.


Great.


Great.


No, just change can be measured directly. We measure certain change relative to a standard change and then we use standard change to say how much time has passed.
So, is this ANY different from what I have been saying all along here, regarding this issue?

To me, this is EXACTLY what I have been saying. I just needed to ask you clarifying questions, so that in the end you will be SEEING and SAYING the EXACT SAME as I have been doing, from the outset. But, for those that did NOT notice, I did NOT have to influence this outcome to reach the same conclusion. I just needed to ask the right open clarifying questions in the right way, so that they could and would learn, discover, SEE, and UNDERSTAND things, for and by themselves.

Just asking the right OPEN questions allows another to FIND and SEE thee Truth for, and by, them self.

Atla
Posts: 1804
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Atla » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:43 am

Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:56 am
Well I certainly do NOT have a 'strong' belief, as I do NOT even have 'any' belief.
You do have beliefs, you are just lying to yourself and to us.
I, obviously, would NOT know if I have "comprehension issues" unless of course they are POINTED OUT to me, which is some thing that you OBVIOUSLY do NOT do. Even when I ask you to POINT OUT things that you accuse me of, you WILL NOT even do that.
I did point out a dozen things but you didn't understand those either, or didn't want to understand. Either you have very severe comprehension issues or you're simply playing a game (or both).
As for Me playing a game, well there could be some, or maybe even a LOT, of Truth in that.

Life, after all, is just a game, to be played and enjoyed. 'Playing', once meant, having fun and IF I am 'playing a game', then I am certainly having fun and enjoying.
Nice try, that was obviously not what I meant.
The 'problem'. WHAT 'problem'?

I, for One, certainly do NOT see any problem here.
The problem with you. We are taking a look at your insanity, because that's what this is all about. I have a little time now and sometimes I'm curious whether I can beat some sense into someone who has deliberately gone insane, and is preaching? (I fail almost every time though.) :)
'Communication' on WHO'S part are you referring to here?

Did you read earlier WHERE I have said that I am here, in this forum, to learn how to communicate better?
Yes, but if you wanted to really communicate better, you would just state what you actually think, believe.
Either you completely and fully UNDERSTAND ALL of what I am saying here, or, I have to continue learning how to communicate better. So, either you UNDERSTAND EVERY I am saying, or there really is a 'problem' with communication itself, and that problem IS; HOW can I better learn how I can communicate thy Self better?
Or what you are trying to communicate are deep-rooted delusions. About you being the voice of the absolute with no beliefs and all.
If you continue to NOT answer My clarifying questions to you, and you continue to NOT point out and show the ERRORS of My ways, that you accuse Me of, then learning how to communicate better, with you, will NOT become easier, for Me.
More lies. Every time I try to be concise and point out something, you write a wall of nonsensical, half-relevant text and confuse the issue.
To Me, it appears as though you are continually TRYING TO make 'this game' much harder than it necessarily HAS TO BE.
That's exactly what you're doing, the question is why?

And now that I was forced to reply with 8-10 sentences, you will probably write 8-10 times half a page, saying nothing at all.

Age
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:17 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:43 am
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:56 am
Well I certainly do NOT have a 'strong' belief, as I do NOT even have 'any' belief.
You do have beliefs, you are just lying to yourself and to us.
Oh, of course thee Truth IS that I might have beliefs that I am just unaware of. I might in fact just be to STUPID to realize that I believe some things, or for some other reason. But I am yet to SEE some sort of evidence of what I am, supposedly, meant to be BELIEVING is True, Right, and Correct.

I also guarantee that I am NOT consciously lying to any one. I seriously can NOT see any thing that I BELIEVE IS True.

I purposely do NOT BELIEVE nor disbelieve any thing, any more, because of the destruction to human society that I have observed, which is caused from the power of BELIEFS, and to a lesser extent from ASSUMPTIONS also.

But as I keep saying, I am always OPEN to being SHOWING the error of my ways.

Provide an example of what one assumes and/or believes that I am BELIEVING is True, then we can take a LOOK AT it, and discuss.
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:43 am
I, obviously, would NOT know if I have "comprehension issues" unless of course they are POINTED OUT to me, which is some thing that you OBVIOUSLY do NOT do. Even when I ask you to POINT OUT things that you accuse me of, you WILL NOT even do that.
I did point out a dozen things but you didn't understand those either, or didn't want to understand. Either you have very severe comprehension issues or you're simply playing a game (or both).
Or could it be POSSIBLE that you are WRONG or INCORRECT? Or, is that just NOT possible?
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:43 am
As for Me playing a game, well there could be some, or maybe even a LOT, of Truth in that.

Life, after all, is just a game, to be played and enjoyed. 'Playing', once meant, having fun and IF I am 'playing a game', then I am certainly having fun and enjoying.
Nice try, that was obviously not what I meant.
Well if that was OBVIOUSLY NOT WHAT YOU MEANT, then WHAT DID YOU MEAN?
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:43 am
The 'problem'. WHAT 'problem'?

I, for One, certainly do NOT see any problem here.
The problem with you. We are taking a look at your insanity, because that's what this is all about. I have a little time now and sometimes I'm curious whether I can beat some sense into someone who has deliberately gone insane, and is preaching? (I fail almost every time though.) :)
And what is this, SUPPOSEDLY, insane person, SUPPOSEDLY, preaching?

If you do NOT TELL, then how are we MEANT TO KNOW?
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:43 am
'Communication' on WHO'S part are you referring to here?

Did you read earlier WHERE I have said that I am here, in this forum, to learn how to communicate better?
Yes, but if you wanted to really communicate better, you would just state what you actually think, believe.
What I REALLY THINK IS that I neither believe nor disbelieve any thing.

Just because that is NOT what you want to HEAR, then that does NOT take away from WHAT I WANT TO SAY regarding this issue.
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:43 am
Either you completely and fully UNDERSTAND ALL of what I am saying here, or, I have to continue learning how to communicate better. So, either you UNDERSTAND EVERY I am saying, or there really is a 'problem' with communication itself, and that problem IS; HOW can I better learn how I can communicate thy Self better?
Or what you are trying to communicate are deep-rooted delusions. About you being the voice of the absolute with no beliefs and all.
Of course MAYBE every thing I am saying IS deep-rooted delusions. You have just to SHOW any thing I have said is delusional, YET.
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:43 am
If you continue to NOT answer My clarifying questions to you, and you continue to NOT point out and show the ERRORS of My ways, that you accuse Me of, then learning how to communicate better, with you, will NOT become easier, for Me.
More lies. Every time I try to be concise and point out something, you write a wall of nonsensical, half-relevant text and confuse the issue.
Because what you write just maybe so superficial, narrowed point of view, and NOT have much at all to do with what I am actually talking about.

Remember it is you with the BELIEF that what I am saying is NOT even possible.
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:43 am
To Me, it appears as though you are continually TRYING TO make 'this game' much harder than it necessarily HAS TO BE.
That's exactly what you're doing, the question is why?
Hang on, WHAT IS IT EXACTLY that you want Me to SEE, ACCEPT, AGREE WITH, and BELIEVE?

Do you REALLY want Me to just say that whatever atla says about Me and what I do or do NOT do, IS absolutely True, Right, and Correct.
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:43 am
And now that I was forced to reply with 8-10 sentences, you will probably write 8-10 times half a page, saying nothing at all.
If it says lots or nothing at all to you, then so be it.

I am NOT necessarily just writing for your sake, atla.

Again, what do you want Me to do? Just roll over and say; atla IS CORRECT?

By the way, I KNEW I had control over you and that I can influence you to write in certain ways, like I have, but I am certainly NOT FORCING you to do any thing at all.

Atla
Posts: 1804
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Atla » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am

Age wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:17 am
Oh, of course thee Truth IS that I might have beliefs that I am just unaware of. I might in fact just be to STUPID to realize that I believe some things, or for some other reason. But I am yet to SEE some sort of evidence of what I am, supposedly, meant to be BELIEVING is True, Right, and Correct.

I also guarantee that I am NOT consciously lying to any one. I seriously can NOT see any thing that I BELIEVE IS True.

I purposely do NOT BELIEVE nor disbelieve any thing, any more, because of the destruction to human society that I have observed, which is caused from the power of BELIEFS, and to a lesser extent from ASSUMPTIONS also.

But as I keep saying, I am always OPEN to being SHOWING the error of my ways.

Provide an example of what one assumes and/or believes that I am BELIEVING is True, then we can take a LOOK AT it, and discuss.
Again: you believe that you have access to universal knowledge by being completely open, which type of delusion usually leads to further destruction of humanity.
Or could it be POSSIBLE that you are WRONG or INCORRECT? Or, is that just NOT possible?
You should stop assuming that everyone else is an idiot and doesn't consider all the possibilities.
Well if that was OBVIOUSLY NOT WHAT YOU MEANT, then WHAT DID YOU MEAN?
Are you really that stupid? I meant playing the game where you write condescending walls of text about how you figured out things where others haven't.
And what is this, SUPPOSEDLY, insane person, SUPPOSEDLY, preaching?

If you do NOT TELL, then how are we MEANT TO KNOW?
I told you like 10-20 times: you are preaching that you have access to universal knowledge by being completely open. You think you are the voice of the absolute or something. That's pure delusional bullshit.
What I REALLY THINK IS that I neither believe nor disbelieve any thing.

Just because that is NOT what you want to HEAR, then that does NOT take away from WHAT I WANT TO SAY regarding this issue.
Then you are simply deceiving yourself. You do have beliefs whether you think you do or not.
Of course MAYBE every thing I am saying IS deep-rooted delusions. You have just to SHOW any thing I have said is delusional, YET.
That's what I've been doing all along. Went over your head, didn't it.
Because what you write just maybe so superficial, narrowed point of view, and NOT have much at all to do with what I am actually talking about.

Remember it is you with the BELIEF that what I am saying is NOT even possible
Again your condescending bullshit, stop assuming everyone else is an idiot. I don't believe that it's not even possible, and my worldview probably contains your point of view: I have all reason to think that it's delusional.
Hang on, WHAT IS IT EXACTLY that you want Me to SEE, ACCEPT, AGREE WITH, and BELIEVE?

Do you REALLY want Me to just say that whatever atla says about Me and what I do or do NOT do, IS absolutely True, Right, and Correct.
Again, stop assuming that everyone else is an idiot. Above a level everyone knows that we can't be absolutely sure of anything.
If it says lots or nothing at all to you, then so be it.

I am NOT necessarily just writing for your sake, atla.

Again, what do you want Me to do? Just roll over and say; atla IS CORRECT?

By the way, I KNEW I had control over you and that I can influence you to write in certain ways, like I have, but I am certainly NOT FORCING you to do any thing at all.
Again, condescending bullshit but you have misjudged me. Stop assuming that everyone else is an idiot and you have control over them.

Do you understand? People like you also make the world a worse place, that's the problem. Take responsibility for your behaviour.

Age
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:16 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:17 am
Oh, of course thee Truth IS that I might have beliefs that I am just unaware of. I might in fact just be to STUPID to realize that I believe some things, or for some other reason. But I am yet to SEE some sort of evidence of what I am, supposedly, meant to be BELIEVING is True, Right, and Correct.

I also guarantee that I am NOT consciously lying to any one. I seriously can NOT see any thing that I BELIEVE IS True.

I purposely do NOT BELIEVE nor disbelieve any thing, any more, because of the destruction to human society that I have observed, which is caused from the power of BELIEFS, and to a lesser extent from ASSUMPTIONS also.

But as I keep saying, I am always OPEN to being SHOWING the error of my ways.

Provide an example of what one assumes and/or believes that I am BELIEVING is True, then we can take a LOOK AT it, and discuss.
Again: you believe that you have access to universal knowledge by being completely open, which type of delusion usually leads to further destruction of humanity.
Okay so you, atla, assume and/or believe that I believe that I have access to universal knowledge by being completely open. Do you have any proof that this is what I believe?

Or, are you just basing this supposed absolute factual knowledge, which you have access to, and have obtained, only on your own already held BELIEFS? Or, were you able to obtain this "knowledge" from some other source?

By the way, how are you defining 'universal knowledge'?

Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
Or could it be POSSIBLE that you are WRONG or INCORRECT? Or, is that just NOT possible?
You should stop assuming that everyone else is an idiot and doesn't consider all the possibilities.
But I did NOT assume any thing at all here. I just asked you an open clarifying question. LOOK I will ask the exact same open clarifying question, and I will once again do this without assuming any thing at all, again; Could it be POSSIBLE that you are WRONG or INCORRECT? Or, is that just NOT possible?

Would you like to answer these questions this time around?
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
Well if that was OBVIOUSLY NOT WHAT YOU MEANT, then WHAT DID YOU MEAN?
Are you really that stupid?
I must BE.

I meant playing the game where you write condescending walls of text about how you figured out things where others haven't.[/quote]

Why would you think or believe, if I had even done that, then that, is "playing a game"?

From your perspective;
Is it impossible for "others" to figure out things that "others" have not? Or,
Is it only impossible for me to figure out things that "others" have not? Or,
Is it just impossible for me to figure out things that you BELIEVE is impossible to figure out? Or,
Is it some thing else?
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
And what is this, SUPPOSEDLY, insane person, SUPPOSEDLY, preaching?

If you do NOT TELL, then how are we MEANT TO KNOW?
I told you like 10-20 times: you are preaching that you have access to universal knowledge by being completely open.
Would you like to point out to us all here WHERE these supposedly 10-20 times that you have supposedly written the above here previously?

Obviously this post, which I am just now replying to, would NOT be included.

Also, is there any WHERE that I have actually written that i have access to universal knowledge by being completely open?

I am also still intrigued how you define 'universal knowledge'?

You think you are the voice of the absolute or something. That's pure delusional bullshit.[/quote]

Is it?

But to me EVERY one is a voice of the absolute or something.

Do you assume, think, or believe that ALL things are NOT a part of the absolute or something?
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
What I REALLY THINK IS that I neither believe nor disbelieve any thing.

Just because that is NOT what you want to HEAR, then that does NOT take away from WHAT I WANT TO SAY regarding this issue.
Then you are simply deceiving yourself. You do have beliefs whether you think you do or not.
If you feel so strongly about this, and obviously have a very strong BELIEF on this issue, then just point out what BELIEFS that I supposedly HAVE.
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
Of course MAYBE every thing I am saying IS deep-rooted delusions. You have just to SHOW any thing I have said is delusional, YET.
That's what I've been doing all along.
Have you? Or, is this what you BELIEVE that you have being doing all along.

Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
Went over your head, didn't it.
Obviously. But this would be BECAUSE it is I who IS delusional, RIGHT?

Or, could it be the case that you only BELIEVE that I have BELIEFS, which is then affecting you in being able to hear that I NEITHER BELIEVE NOR DISBELIEVE ANY THING.

Did you HEAR IT THIS TIME?
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
Because what you write just maybe so superficial, narrowed point of view, and NOT have much at all to do with what I am actually talking about.

Remember it is you with the BELIEF that what I am saying is NOT even possible
Again your condescending bullshit, stop assuming everyone else is an idiot.
But I NEVER assumed such a thing.

How about you STOP assuming that I am assuming some things?
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
I don't believe that it's not even possible, and my worldview probably contains your point of view: I have all reason to think that it's delusional.
I will tell you straight; THAT went, as you call it, "straight over this head". I can NOT make any sense of what you are saying here now.
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
Hang on, WHAT IS IT EXACTLY that you want Me to SEE, ACCEPT, AGREE WITH, and BELIEVE?

Do you REALLY want Me to just say that whatever atla says about Me and what I do or do NOT do, IS absolutely True, Right, and Correct.
Again, stop assuming that everyone else is an idiot.
AGAIN, I NEVER assumed such a thing.
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
Above a level everyone knows that we can't be absolutely sure of anything.
So WHY write like you are absolutely sure of things?

And, to top that off, you even write like you are absolutely sure of things ABOUT WHAT "OTHERS" SAY AND DO.

And by the way there is ONE thing that can be KNOWN and be absolutely sure about.
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
If it says lots or nothing at all to you, then so be it.

I am NOT necessarily just writing for your sake, atla.

Again, what do you want Me to do? Just roll over and say; atla IS CORRECT?

By the way, I KNEW I had control over you and that I can influence you to write in certain ways, like I have, but I am certainly NOT FORCING you to do any thing at all.
Again, condescending bullshit but you have misjudged me.
Have I?
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
Stop assuming that everyone else is an idiot and you have control over them.
ONCE AGAIN, I NEVER assumed such a thing. And, ONCE AGAIN how about you STOP assuming that I am assuming things, when clearly I am NOT.

Unless of course you do have some sort of ACCESS to inside this head and KNOW, for sure, the thoughts that are within it. Do you have access to this 'knowledge'?
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
Do you understand?
Do I understand WHAT exactly?
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
People like you
Who/what is the 'you' that you are referring to?

If the 'you' is 'me' then who/what is the 'me', which people are like?

And, is that ALL people, or just some people, are supposedly like 'me', that is; if you did actually mean 'me' when you wrote the word 'you'?
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
also make the world a worse place,
How do people like 'you', or 'me', supposedly, make the world a 'worse' place?

Worse than WHAT exactly?

Do 'you', atla, make the world a better place?

If yes, then HOW?
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
that's the problem.
What is the problem? To me, a 'problem' is just a question posed for a solution. I do NOT see any problems nor problem here.
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 am
Take responsibility for your behaviour.
Firstly, what is my supposed behavior?
Secondly, how would you like me to take responsibility for THAT, what only you KNOW is my supposed behavior?

Atla
Posts: 1804
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Atla » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:33 am

You are incapable of carrying a conversation. I'll ignore 20-30 self-contradictory ramblings and just quote 3 things.
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:16 am
But to me EVERY one is a voice of the absolute or something.

Do you assume, think, or believe that ALL things are NOT a part of the absolute or something?
All things are part of the absolute but do you comprehend that every voice is still basically just originating from what's going on in that human's head? The human has no access to some greater inherent knowledge, no matter how open he/she is.
So WHY write like you are absolutely sure of things?
I don't, that may be your belief/projection. I'm not absolutely sure of anything and anyone who claims to be, isn't very bright.
And by the way there is ONE thing that can be KNOWN and be absolutely sure about.
No, there isn't.
If you believe that there is one such thing then name it.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Logik » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:36 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:33 am
And by the way there is ONE thing that can be KNOWN and be absolutely sure about.
No, there isn't.
If you believe that there is one such thing then name it.
You are absolutely sure that you aren't sure of anything.

Atla
Posts: 1804
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Atla » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:39 am

Logik wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:36 am
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:33 am
And by the way there is ONE thing that can be KNOWN and be absolutely sure about.
No, there isn't.
If you believe that there is one such thing then name it.
You are absolutely sure that you aren't sure of anything.
No, I'm not. That's the game idiots play.
If I really have to put it some way then I'd say the answer is undefined.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Logik » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:46 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:39 am
Logik wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:36 am
You are absolutely sure that you aren't sure of anything.
No, I'm not. That's the game idiots play.
So you are or aren't sure that's the game idiots play?
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:39 am
If I really have to put it some way then I'd say the answer is undefined.
So you are certain that the answer to the question is undefined.

The game idiots play is "claiming things". Positive or negative. The moment you put your foot in it - the Pyrrhonist (me) wins.

Atla
Posts: 1804
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Atla » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:51 am

Logik wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:46 am
So you aren't sure that's the game idiots play?
I'm not sure.
So you are certain that the answer to the question is undefined.
I'm not certain.

If I really have to put it some way then I'd say the answer is undefined. I'm neither certain nor not-certain.
Many idiots base entire belief systems on the absolute certainty game - they can't handle that there's inherent uncertainty even about inherent uncertainty.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Logik » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:52 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:51 am
If I really have to put it some way then I'd say the answer is undefined. I'm neither certain nor not-certain.
Many idiots base entire belief systems on the absolute certainty game - they can't handle that there's inherent uncertainty even about inherent uncertainty.
You can't escape the trap.

Even on a continuum you have drawn a line somewhere that is "sufficiently" certain or uncertain. You you comfortable with the level of uncertainty that the evidence is sufficient enough to say it.

Your word signals your commitment.

Atla
Posts: 1804
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Atla » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:57 am

Logik wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:52 am
You can't escape the trap.

Even on a continuum you have drawn a line somewhere that is "sufficiently" certain or uncertain. You you comfortable with the level of uncertainty that the evidence is sufficient enough to say it.

Your word signals your commitment.
There's no trap. We do have to draw a line somewhere and claim it to be "sufficient" certainty, but that's just a necessary convention. It can never be absolute certainty. A more open person than Age always keeps this in mind.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Logik » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:00 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:57 am
There's no trap. We do have to draw a line somewhere and claim it to be "sufficient" certainty, but that's just a necessary convention. It can never be absolute certainty.
Forget absolute certainty. There's infinite room for disagreement on where one ought to draw the line.

You have drawn it at 51%. Why not 50.99999999999999%? Why not 51.0000000000000000001%?

You seem rather certain about the number 51. You seem rather certain on what is "sufficient" certainty.

Atla
Posts: 1804
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Atla » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:40 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:00 pm
Forget absolute certainty. There's infinite room for disagreement on where one ought to draw the line.

You have drawn it at 51%. Why not 50.99999999999999%? Why not 51.0000000000000000001%?

You seem rather certain about the number 51. You seem rather certain on what is "sufficient" certainty.
Where it's best to draw the line is another issue. But I'm pretty sure no one would draw it around 0-10%. Which is I think about how much certainty we can assign to claims of mystical universal knowledge, based on zero available evidence.

Age
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:00 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:33 am
You are incapable of carrying a conversation. I'll ignore 20-30 self-contradictory ramblings and just quote 3 things.
Saying that there is a number of things but also saying you will ignore some of them and list only three of them, some people might infer as being a complete over exaggeration. Without any evidence of there being 20-30 self contradictory so called "ramblings" and then NOT even producing one supposedly self-contradictory any thing, might leave the readers wondering what is really going on here?

As you failed to answer ANY of My open clarification questions also in regards to your other numbered accusations about me, then what some might infer could well be VERY TRUE.
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:33 am
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:16 am
But to me EVERY one is a voice of the absolute or something.

Do you assume, think, or believe that ALL things are NOT a part of the absolute or something?
All things are part of the absolute but do you comprehend that every voice is still basically just originating from what's going on in that human's head?
You obviously missed the point.
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:33 am
The human has no access to some greater inherent knowledge, no matter how open he/she is.
So, you allude to there being some greater inherent knowledge, but no human has access to it.

Is there some greater inherent knowledge?

Is there a Universal knowledge?

If, according to you, there is NOT, then WHY even mention them?
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:33 am
So WHY write like you are absolutely sure of things?
I don't, that may be your belief/projection.
Are you absolutely sure that you do not do this?

When you write things like: The human has no access to some greater inherent knowledge, no matter how open he/she is., which you actually wrote the very sentence before this sentence, then that, to me anyway, comes across as, and appears very strongly as, though you BELIEVE that you KNOW absolutely, for sure, of some things.
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:33 am
I'm not absolutely sure of anything and anyone who claims to be, isn't very bright.
So then WHY do "people like you" BELIEVE some things, when in fact you are NOT even absolutely sure that it is actually true, right, or even correct?

And, when you say things like: The human has no access to some greater inherent knowledge, no matter how open he/she is.


What do you actually mean by this statement:

Are you saying,
That it could actually be FALSE, WRONG, and/or INCORRECT? Or,
Partly false, wrong, and/or incorrect? Or,
That you are absolutely sure that this statement is True, Right, and/or Correct?

If it is either of the former two, then you certainly do NOT portray that in any way, shape, nor form.

You really do come across, to me anyway, as though you KNOW, for sure, what thee Truth IS.
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:33 am
And by the way there is ONE thing that can be KNOWN and be absolutely sure about.
No, there isn't.
AGAIN, are you absolutely sure of this? OR, are you NOT sure if there is ONE thing that can be KNOWN and be absolutely sure about?

You certainly come across as the former, AGAIN.
Atla wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:33 am
If you believe that there is one such thing then name it.
But I neither believe, nor disbelieve, any thing, so then I will NOT name it. If I was to name it, then I WOULD BE contradicting My self.

You have yet to SHOW one self-contradictory statement I have made. I do NOT want to start giving you any now.

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