Free agent cannot be created

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AlexW
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by AlexW » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:52 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:08 am
The Universe may be eternal and therefore itself uncaused but causation occurs within it at a smaller scale
Events do not happen randomly but in response to previous events that follow a logical and temporal chain
This might all be "true" when looking at it from a certain conceptual point of view...
But what if you remove memory (of a previous state) out of what you just said? Where is "causation", where are "temporal chains" without thoughts referring to a state that is not now?

surreptitious57
Posts: 2911
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:12 am

AlexW wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
The Universe may be eternal and therefore itself uncaused but causation occurs within it at a smaller scale
Events do not happen randomly but in response to previous events that follow a logical and temporal chain
This might all be true when looking at it from a certain conceptual point of view
But what if you remove memory ( of a previous state ) out of what you just said ?
Memory is not required for causation to occur. Most events that obey the law of cause and effect occur between
objects not beings. And so it is not necessary for an object to know how to behave in a causal way - it just does

AlexW
Posts: 372
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by AlexW » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:41 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:12 am
it is not necessary for an object to know how to behave in a causal way - it just does
How do you know?

surreptitious57
Posts: 2911
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:29 am

AlexW wrote:
How do you know
They dont possess memory so act automatically in accordance with the laws of physics
It is those laws that determine how the objects act rather than the objects themselves

Age
Posts: 1996
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am

bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:36 pm

Age wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:59 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:29 pm
The problem of personality.
This, so called, "problem" can be very easily overcome and solved. As I suggest previously the 'personality' comes from thoughts (and emotions). The Mind is NOT these things.
I agree. But that is mind which allows me to experience thoughts and emotions.
I agree with this, but not in the same way you do.

I already have a defined conclusion for what 'mind' is, what 'me' is, and how the 'mind' allows 'me' to experience thoughts and emotions in your sentence here. Now can you define the 'mind', the 'me', and how that that 'mind' allows 'me' to experience thoughts and emotions?

That is mind which allows me to cause different things.[/quote]

What is the 'mind' and how is 'it' in relation to the 'me' here?
Also, are you able to answer who/what 'me' actually is?
Age wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:59 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:29 pm
The very fact that we have personal internal lives, such as personal thought and decision means that there should be many minds involved in the reality.
You have just used the right words here that gives a clue to WHO the person, the personal, or the personality actually IS. Those words are 'personal THOUGHT'. What makes each person an individual and different personality is the personal (individual, different) THOUGHTS within each and every human body.

Older human beings are able to KNOW what 'thoughts' are, but what is just as obviously KNOWN is ALL human beings, since their conception through evolution have NEVER known what the 'mind' is.

What the Mind actually IS and how it relates in conjunction with thought and emotion is very easily to understand, and can be discussed later if so wished.

But if you want to insist that there are MANY minds, then so be it.
I will be happy to hear your words in another thread which I open shortly.[/quote]

Okay, see you there.
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:36 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:59 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:29 pm

Yes, that is how I see the reality.
I see 'reality', itself, a bit different. But we can leave this for another discussion if you like?
What is reality then?
I am on a quest to learn how to show how easy it really is for everyone to live in a pollution-free and truly peaceful and harmonious world together. But, when I start to discuss this, some people will say, "but that is not 'reality' ", "you have to look at 'reality' ", and other things like; "look around you, this is 'reality' ". What I would like to express, but rarely get the opportunity to, is; that what is happening now, in this current world, when this is written, is 'really' happening, but this is certainly not what 'reality' is, from my perspective. I wholeheartedly, and obviously, agree that what is happening 'NOW', at any given moment is happening, but what is happening NOW, is not 'reality', in another sense.

No matter in what time period or in what place, whatever human beings are living in, and have a conception of what the word 'reality' is, these people will think that what they are living in is 'reality'. However, to most of the human beings who live, when this is written, 'a flat world' is NOT 'reality', also 'a earth centered Universe world' is NOT 'reality', although that WAS 'reality' to the people's back then. 'Reality' seems to always be changing with each generation and era.

No person 'really' wants to live in a world full of pollution, where there are starving children, with hatred, terror, wars, and killing, but this is the world that is really happening and which ALL people live in, when this is written.

What ALL people 'really' want is to live in a world without pollution, where there are no starving children, with just loving peaceful people all around them. This is 'really' possible.

To me, the world that ALL people 'really' want and that which is 'real' and is a possibil'ity' IS 'reality'.

'Reality' is some thing to work towards and create, and once it is has been created, then it is what is really happening. 'Reality' is then another goal and some thing else to move towards.

Perfection, or a Heaven like state/place, is a perfect example of 'Reality' as it is some thing that may never be actually obtained, but It is some thing that ALL people want to live, can work together towards, and a state/place that brings with it a 'real' sense of purpose and achievement with each step made to getting closer to it.
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:36 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:59 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:29 pm

I think I should agree with your observation. Knowledge in general sense is more than what human comprehend. I should define knowledge as what is derived from the relation between things.


Well, I have an argument for that which clearly show how there exists an actual and real physical step of causality. In this argument I also show that mind is necessary as a main ingredient. I would be happy to share it with you if you wish.
I would love to see it.
So here is the argument: Consider a change in a system, X->Y.
P1. X and Y cannot coexist therefore X must vanish before Y takes place.
P2. Y however cannot comes of nothingness.
C. Therefore there should exist a mind which experiences X (is aware of X) and causes Y.
I hope it is okay with you what I did here? If not, just let me know.

P1. I agree.
P2. That is just an assumption. Although I agree wholeheartedly with it, I have yet to see HOW any thing could come from nothing, but I also will not yet say Y CAN NOT come from nothing, until I see actual evidence that Y CAN NOT come from nothing. For all I KNOW the whole Universe may just have come from no thing at all.

Although I remain OPEN to EVERY thing and can NOT yet see how any thing can come from no thing, what I can and do very easily see is just how EVERY thing came into existence.

C. I do not, yet, see how you arrived at YOUR conclusion.
If X and Y can not coexist and X must vanish before Y takes place, then how and why does that mean that 'there should exist a mind'?

You might have to explain what the definition of the word 'mind' is that are you seeing this from here?

If you seeing this 'mind' as being very deep down, at the most fundamental level of Creation, Itself, then I can see where you are coming from. But i just want to clarify first, to make sure.
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:36 pm
Here we show two things, the necessity of existence of mind and the fact that causality involved in any change.
If an intelligent species has evolved that is capable of becoming truly Self-aware, then I do NOT dispute the necessity of existence of Mind at all.
Nor, do I dispute the fact that causality is involved in any change.

For, to me, it is a very fact that Creation nor Evolution could NOT exist without causality.
Creation AND Evolution co-exist together as One.
Therefore, there IS causality.
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:36 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:01 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:29 pm

Minds.
Okay, now this is where it can get a bit tricky.

I could ask what is 'mind' or 'minds', but I will not, for now.

But I will ask; is 'we', who/what you are saying is 'minds', in absolutely EVERY particle in the Universe, or just in human bodies, or are 'we/minds' in some else? Or, are 'we/minds' some thing else all together?
Every thing or being has a mind. But let's discuss it in another thread.

Age wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:01 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:29 pm

Yes. By stuff I mean physical things which we experience and interact through it.
To me, there is a Universe with physical things, which can be seen with human eyes, and, there is are things, which can not be seen with human eyes.

When you say 'we' here, you are referring to human beings right? Or, are you referring to more than just them?

There are layers and layers, and to explain, UNDERSTAND, and SEE them ALL, then I need to know where you are up to exactly.
By we I mean all things or beings. Sorry for not being clear here.
To me, 'we' can refer to all things, or, to beings, but 'beings' are not necessarily all things, and 'all things' are not necessarily beings.
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:36 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:01 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:29 pm

I used to think that time is not real too but I changed my mind.
But you can not change YOUR mind if as you previously stated that YOU/WE are mind.

What makes more sense, for me anyway, is, now you see things differently, and the view that you used to have has changed.
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:29 pm
I have an argument for time being real: Consider a change in state of a system, X->Y. Two states cannot lay on each other since the state of affair becomes ill-defined. This means that two states must lay on different points. This means that we need a variable to allow this to happen. There must however be a duration between two points otherwise the change will never takes place. The variable is therefore time.
This is true. You are just using the word 'time' to refer to change. I just use the word 'change' to refer to 'change' and the word 'time' to refer to measurement that human beings use to describe between one 'change' to another.

Of course and obviously a 'change' happens. In fact it is, as far as I can tell, an impossibility for there not to be 'change' taking place. 'Change' just being the interaction between physical things. With each interaction just being an action, in and of itself, and obviously with each action there is a reaction. A re-action just causes things to move or change, and with each movement more particles of matter interact, which is just an action, which causes a reaction. This reaction process, which is always happening NOW, is just creation, in action. This continual action/reaction process is HOW things are continually 'changing'. With 'change' just being the evolution process. Creation/Evolution are just the One Thing continually happening. But I have digressed.
No. I just have shown in my argument that a variable, time, is need to allows the change. I start with a change in a system and show that change is not possible without time.
If I have this correct;
Your definition of 'time' is the variable between two points.
My definition of 'time' is 'the measured' duration between two points.

Obviously, there has to be some sort of distance, (variable/duration) which, in itself, makes two things. Otherwise, there would only be one, unchangeable, thing, always.
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:36 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:01 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:29 pm

This depends on the model.
How about instead of looking at models we just LOOK AT what IS, instead?

For example if for every action there is a reaction, then there, obviously, is no beginning and there was no end.

Now, because I remain OPEN always, there may have well been a beginning, but without any proof of that I just can NOT see how that is possible.

Maybe an explanation of HOW a beginning of ALL-THERE-IS is possible, but I have yet to see one. However, HOW ALL-THERE-IS is infinite and eternal is very EASY to SEE and UNDERSTAND.
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:01 pm

These two models look very far fetched from what IS the actual Truth.
What other option do we have?
What about the option of; There is a Mind, and, the 'beginning' and appearance of stuff lay at the same point?
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:36 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:01 pm


'Internal', literally, being the operative word here. Every human being has their own internal thoughts/thinking, and thus their own lives, or their own 'picture' of life. This picture is, literally, drawn from each one's own past experiences.

The reason life is so uniquely personal and/or different is because each human body has had their own uniquely personal different experiences. It is from those past experiences thoughts are formed. And the reason each person is so different and unique is because no two human bodies can have the exact same experiences. Individual experiences, literally, creates the individuals, who live/dwell within the individual different human bodies.
Ok. Let me ask you this question that how that is possible that we can have different experience in different locations? To be honest the model with more minds doesn't resolve the issue.
How 'we', different people, can have different experiences in different locations IS because how could 'we' NOT have. EVERY human body experiences different things. Through some or all of the five senses of each and every different human body different experiences are seen, felt, heard, smelt, and tasted. ALL bodies are in different locations. There are NO two bodies that can co-exist the exact same location. Even siamese twins, who share the exact same body, do NOT share the exact same experiences. One set of eyes might be looking in a different direction, thus having a different perspective and experiences, from a different location, and also forming different thinking/thoughts. These different experiences is thus the very reason WHY all people are different.

To me, 'people' are unique and different beings, with each one being within a different human head. Whereas, there is another Being, on a deeper level, that is even within each unique and different person(al) being.

How 'we', the one and only Being, can have different experiences in different locations, is by LOOKING AT ALL things through human being's different perspectives. The one and only Being is just the collective sharing of ALL the person/beings. That is; What it is that is agreed upon by ALL is how the one and only Being is omniscient, and able to KNOW.

'We', the one Being, is just a collective of 'we', the different experienced and located human beings.

Age
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:51 am

AlexW wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:17 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:21 pm
Anything which is caused is thought up. That doesn't mean that what is caused is not real. Basically I have problem with (4).
What is thought up can not be real.
Thought operates on a conceptual/interpretative level whereas reality is prior to that - a concept never touches or influences reality (just like a map never touches or influences the terrain).
Reality is not affected or controlled by causation - it is uncaused. It is, as you say, "free" - free from causation.
But, from another perspective, before a ship that travels in time becomes real, (or as some might call 'reality) it could be 'thought up', invented, designed, made, or created/caused, and then thus become real. Just like every other human created thing was not at FIRST "reality", but was FIRST 'thought up' BEFORE it became real.

Age
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:53 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:08 am
AlexW wrote:
Reality is not affected or controlled by causation - it is uncaused
The Universe may be eternal and therefore itself uncaused but causation occurs within it at a smaller scale
Events do not happen randomly but in response to previous events that follow a logical and temporal chain
I do not see how it could be otherwise.

Age
Posts: 1996
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:54 am

AlexW wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:52 am
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:08 am
The Universe may be eternal and therefore itself uncaused but causation occurs within it at a smaller scale
Events do not happen randomly but in response to previous events that follow a logical and temporal chain
This might all be "true" when looking at it from a certain conceptual point of view...
But what if you remove memory (of a previous state) out of what you just said? Where is "causation", where are "temporal chains" without thoughts referring to a state that is not now?
If we remove memory, then could we be having this discussion?

Age
Posts: 1996
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:01 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:42 am
Age wrote:
What you call beginning here I just call the NOW ( capital letters ) To me there is really only a NOW which as you say lies at eternal past and what I would add lies at eternal future. At any given moment there is only a NOW and this is the end which is also just the beginning. What happens NOW creates ( a perceived future ) and is the result ( of a perceived past )
I think that there is only the eternal NOW in relation to time and nothing else. The past only exists in human memory and the future only exists in
human imagination. Another way to think of it is that the past is NOW that is no longer happening and the future is NOW that has yet to happen
Do you think that I am saying any thing different to what you wrote here?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:42 am
But I also think that because of Special Relativity that there may be many eternal NOWS not just a single definite one and this is why :
No two points in spacetime can occupy the same NOW because of the finite time that it takes for light to travel from one to the other
So there are an infinity of NOWS existing in their own real time which is different for each one rather than just the one eternal NOW
Have you seen me previously write: Absolutely EVERY thing is relative to the observer?

What you have written here, to me, means exactly what I have been writing.

That is; Absolutely EVERY thing is relative to the observer BECAUSE of the "location" that one is in, and at, can NOT be occupied by "another" [observer]. So, EVERY observer is in a different location [different relative "place" and "time"], and therefore there are as many eternal NOWS as there are observers.

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bahman
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:21 pm

AlexW wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:17 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:21 pm
Anything which is caused is thought up. That doesn't mean that what is caused is not real. Basically I have problem with (4).
What is thought up can not be real.
Thought operates on a conceptual/interpretative level whereas reality is prior to that - a concept never touches or influences reality (just like a map never touches or influences the terrain).
Reality is not affected or controlled by causation - it is uncaused. It is, as you say, "free" - free from causation.
I understand that thought are not real in the way you see reality as real but thought at least in the case of human is needed to cause.

AlexW
Posts: 372
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by AlexW » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:10 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:29 am
AlexW wrote: They dont possess memory so act automatically in accordance with the laws of physics
It is those laws that determine how the objects act rather than the objects themselves
Would you agree that to apply any law of physics you have to know, remember, a previous state of affairs so you can make an informed statement about the projected outcome?

AlexW
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by AlexW » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:13 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:54 am
AlexW wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:52 am
If we remove memory, then could we be having this discussion?
No.
But who is the one remembering and having the discussion?

AlexW
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:53 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by AlexW » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:17 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:21 pm
I understand that thought are not real in the way you see reality as real but thought at least in the case of human is needed to cause.
Yes, in the „case of human“ it is used to think up causation. Doesn’t mean it’s ultimately real/true. Its an idea, a belief, nothing more.

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bahman
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:20 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:36 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:59 am

This, so called, "problem" can be very easily overcome and solved. As I suggest previously the 'personality' comes from thoughts (and emotions). The Mind is NOT these things.
I agree. But that is mind which allows me to experience thoughts and emotions
I agree with this, but not in the same way you do.

I already have a defined conclusion for what 'mind' is, what 'me' is, and how the 'mind' allows 'me' to experience thoughts and emotions in your sentence here. Now can you define the 'mind', the 'me', and how that that 'mind' allows 'me' to experience thoughts and emotions?
Mind to me is essence of any being or thing with the ability to experience, decide and cause. Experiencing is an ability of mind therefore we cannot understand how mind experience certain things. The same is true for decision and causation.
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:36 pm
That is mind which allows me to cause different things.
What is the 'mind' and how is 'it' in relation to the 'me' here?
Also, are you able to answer who/what 'me' actually is?
Mind is essence of 'me'. 'Me' is being/thing.
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:36 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:59 am

I see 'reality', itself, a bit different. But we can leave this for another discussion if you like?
What is reality then?
I am on a quest to learn how to show how easy it really is for everyone to live in a pollution-free and truly peaceful and harmonious world together. But, when I start to discuss this, some people will say, "but that is not 'reality' ", "you have to look at 'reality' ", and other things like; "look around you, this is 'reality' ". What I would like to express, but rarely get the opportunity to, is; that what is happening now, in this current world, when this is written, is 'really' happening, but this is certainly not what 'reality' is, from my perspective. I wholeheartedly, and obviously, agree that what is happening 'NOW', at any given moment is happening, but what is happening NOW, is not 'reality', in another sense.

No matter in what time period or in what place, whatever human beings are living in, and have a conception of what the word 'reality' is, these people will think that what they are living in is 'reality'. However, to most of the human beings who live, when this is written, 'a flat world' is NOT 'reality', also 'a earth centered Universe world' is NOT 'reality', although that WAS 'reality' to the people's back then. 'Reality' seems to always be changing with each generation and era.

No person 'really' wants to live in a world full of pollution, where there are starving children, with hatred, terror, wars, and killing, but this is the world that is really happening and which ALL people live in, when this is written.

What ALL people 'really' want is to live in a world without pollution, where there are no starving children, with just loving peaceful people all around them. This is 'really' possible.

To me, the world that ALL people 'really' want and that which is 'real' and is a possibil'ity' IS 'reality'.

'Reality' is some thing to work towards and create, and once it is has been created, then it is what is really happening. 'Reality' is then another goal and some thing else to move towards.

Perfection, or a Heaven like state/place, is a perfect example of 'Reality' as it is some thing that may never be actually obtained, but It is some thing that ALL people want to live, can work together towards, and a state/place that brings with it a 'real' sense of purpose and achievement with each step made to getting closer to it.
I see.
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:36 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:59 am
I would love to see it.
So here is the argument: Consider a change in a system, X->Y.
P1. X and Y cannot coexist therefore X must vanish before Y takes place.
P2. Y however cannot comes of nothingness.
C. Therefore there should exist a mind which experiences X (is aware of X) and causes Y.
I hope it is okay with you what I did here? If not, just let me know.
That is all good.
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am
P1. I agree.
Great.
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am
P2. That is just an assumption. Although I agree wholeheartedly with it, I have yet to see HOW any thing could come from nothing, but I also will not yet say Y CAN NOT come from nothing, until I see actual evidence that Y CAN NOT come from nothing. For all I KNOW the whole Universe may just have come from no thing at all.
Ok, let me argue it this way: We always see correlation between X and Y. Nothingness is however indifferent. Therefore we cannot expect to get specific Y from nothingness. So I change P2 to "one cannot expect to get specific Y from nothingness".
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am
Although I remain OPEN to EVERY thing and can NOT yet see how any thing can come from no thing, what I can and do very easily see is just how EVERY thing came into existence.

C. I do not, yet, see how you arrived at YOUR conclusion.
If X and Y can not coexist and X must vanish before Y takes place, then how and why does that mean that 'there should exist a mind'?
The problem is if X vanishes therefore we do not have any witness in order to have Y after all. This means that there should exist a mind who witnesses X and can cause Y when X is gone.
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am
You might have to explain what the definition of the word 'mind' is that are you seeing this from here?
Mind is essence of any being or thing with ability to experience, decide and cause.
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am
If you seeing this 'mind' as being very deep down, at the most fundamental level of Creation, Itself, then I can see where you are coming from. But i just want to clarify first, to make sure.
I know that we agree on the fact is the most fundamental thing in reality but I want to reach to a point that we agree that mind exists and necessary for any change.
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:36 pm
Here we show two things, the necessity of existence of mind and the fact that causality involved in any change.
If an intelligent species has evolved that is capable of becoming truly Self-aware, then I do NOT dispute the necessity of existence of Mind at all.
Nor, do I dispute the fact that causality is involved in any change.

For, to me, it is a very fact that Creation nor Evolution could NOT exist without causality.
Creation AND Evolution co-exist together as One.
Therefore, there IS causality.
That is interesting too.
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:36 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:01 pm
But you can not change YOUR mind if as you previously stated that YOU/WE are mind.

What makes more sense, for me anyway, is, now you see things differently, and the view that you used to have has changed.

This is true. You are just using the word 'time' to refer to change. I just use the word 'change' to refer to 'change' and the word 'time' to refer to measurement that human beings use to describe between one 'change' to another.

Of course and obviously a 'change' happens. In fact it is, as far as I can tell, an impossibility for there not to be 'change' taking place. 'Change' just being the interaction between physical things. With each interaction just being an action, in and of itself, and obviously with each action there is a reaction. A re-action just causes things to move or change, and with each movement more particles of matter interact, which is just an action, which causes a reaction. This reaction process, which is always happening NOW, is just creation, in action. This continual action/reaction process is HOW things are continually 'changing'. With 'change' just being the evolution process. Creation/Evolution are just the One Thing continually happening. But I have digressed.
No. I just have shown in my argument that a variable, time, is need to allows the change. I start with a change in a system and show that change is not possible without time.
If I have this correct;
Your definition of 'time' is the variable between two points.
My definition of 'time' is 'the measured' duration between two points.

Obviously, there has to be some sort of distance, (variable/duration) which, in itself, makes two things. Otherwise, there would only be one, unchangeable, thing, always.
Well, I first showed that two points are necessary otherwise the state of system become ill-defined. These two points belong to a variable. I then show that there is a duration between two points otherwise the change never occurs.

It seems to me that we both agree with existence of duration. In my case the duration is fundamental since change cannot happen without it. In your case the duration is measured thing.
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:36 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:01 pm
How about instead of looking at models we just LOOK AT what IS, instead?

For example if for every action there is a reaction, then there, obviously, is no beginning and there was no end.

Now, because I remain OPEN always, there may have well been a beginning, but without any proof of that I just can NOT see how that is possible.

Maybe an explanation of HOW a beginning of ALL-THERE-IS is possible, but I have yet to see one. However, HOW ALL-THERE-IS is infinite and eternal is very EASY to SEE and UNDERSTAND.
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:01 pm
These two models look very far fetched from what IS the actual Truth.
What other option do we have?
What about the option of; There is a Mind, and, the 'beginning' and appearance of stuff lay at the same point?
I see what do you mean. I have only one argument against that now which I presented it in another thread. So let's see how our discussion follows in another thread.
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:01 pm
bahman wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:36 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:01 pm
'Internal', literally, being the operative word here. Every human being has their own internal thoughts/thinking, and thus their own lives, or their own 'picture' of life. This picture is, literally, drawn from each one's own past experiences.

The reason life is so uniquely personal and/or different is because each human body has had their own uniquely personal different experiences. It is from those past experiences thoughts are formed. And the reason each person is so different and unique is because no two human bodies can have the exact same experiences. Individual experiences, literally, creates the individuals, who live/dwell within the individual different human bodies.
Ok. Let me ask you this question that how that is possible that we can have different experience in different locations? To be honest the model with more minds doesn't resolve the issue.
How 'we', different people, can have different experiences in different locations IS because how could 'we' NOT have. EVERY human body experiences different things. Through some or all of the five senses of each and every different human body different experiences are seen, felt, heard, smelt, and tasted. ALL bodies are in different locations. There are NO two bodies that can co-exist the exact same location. Even siamese twins, who share the exact same body, do NOT share the exact same experiences. One set of eyes might be looking in a different direction, thus having a different perspective and experiences, from a different location, and also forming different thinking/thoughts. These different experiences is thus the very reason WHY all people are different.

To me, 'people' are unique and different beings, with each one being within a different human head. Whereas, there is another Being, on a deeper level, that is even within each unique and different person(al) being.

How 'we', the one and only Being, can have different experiences in different locations, is by LOOKING AT ALL things through human being's different perspectives. The one and only Being is just the collective sharing of ALL the person/beings. That is; What it is that is agreed upon by ALL is how the one and only Being is omniscient, and able to KNOW.

'We', the one Being, is just a collective of 'we', the different experienced and located human beings.
I see what you are trying to say. But how do you relate one Mind to many bodies? Again, this we can discuss it in another thread.

Age
Posts: 1996
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:10 am

AlexW wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:13 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:54 am
If we remove memory, then could we be having this discussion?
No.
But who is the one remembering and having the discussion?
(I just corrected the quotes).

How much time do you have? To explain this fully I think could not be done here in a forum.

But in short; To me, memory is just a part of thoughts, and 'thoughts' are one half of what a person is. If memory is a part of a person, then a person is NOT who the one is who is the one remembering.

The one who is truly able to remember is thee One who is able to observe and see ALL. This One is known by many different names, some being; Allah/God/Enlightenment, plus many more.

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