bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:55 pm
Age wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:52 pm
Thank you very much for answering all of my questions. Only on very rarest of occasions, in this forum, do My clarifying questions get answered. Receiving answers is very refreshing, so thank you again.
You are very welcome.
Age wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:52 pm
I now realize that I was misreading what you were arguing for before. So, a couple more clarifying questions now:
No problem. I am open to discuss things.
Age wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:52 pm
If human beings are not caused/created, then how do/did they come to exist?
We have always existed as mind, mind being the essence of any being/thing with the ability to experience and cause.
When you use the word 'we' having always existed as 'mind', is that the collective 'we' as one, and that is also is the one Mind/Essence, right?
After all, 'always existed' implies an eternalness to it. And, 'we', individual, human beings, have not always existed.
Or, are there many 'minds' that have always existed?
Do you see/mean the 'we' as individuals, each with its own 'mind/essence'?
If so, then is this individual mind just a part of some Universal One Mind? Or, is there some thing else going on here?
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:55 pm We just have a chance to interact with material as a form of human being now.We have been other things in the past.
Fair enough, but that does not explain HOW human beings did come to exist, if they are not caused/created.
By the way, ALL of this can be fully explained and completely understood in a very easy and simple way. But i am just trying to work out why you are trying to argue the way you are, and all of the finer details, and how they relate to each other, within your argument.
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:55 pmAge wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:52 pm
Your first premise 1) Causation requires knowledge, to me, did not make sense, and thus was incorrect. And, on first glance/reading of your explanation of this premise it seemed absurd. But on second glance/reading it is 'paradoxical', to me anyway. By the way a 'paradox', to me, is some thing that seems absurd or contradictory but expresses a truth. I did not notice the truth in it the first time round.
Let me give you a couple of examples to show what do I mean with the first premise. Think of a seed which turns into a tree. The causation is a at work at any moment of its development from one stage to another stage. Yet knowledge which is encrypted as DNA exists in the seed and it is necessary for the development of the seed. Now think of a cue ball which hits another ball. Again, the balls react upon collision based on their nature. Knowledge requires for causation since things should go somewhere, an end from a beginning.
The word 'knowledge' is what did not make sense to me, in your argument, and of which seemed incorrect, the first time i read it. But as explained the second time i read it, i could see that what you said expressed a truth. To me, a 'paradox' is just some thing which SEEMS absurd or contradictory but which ACTUALLY does express a truth.
How do you define the word 'knowledge'?
To me, i had previous seen 'knowledge' as some thing that was held within human brains and/or within human text and/or speech. So, your first premise; Causation requires knowledge did not make sense because causation was happening well before humans, and thus knowledge, came into existence. But on deeper reflection i remembered that there is a KNOWING held deep within every one. This KNOWING is the 'knowledge', which i think you are talking about here, that is inbuilt within dna, which causes all things to act and interact with each other. The resulted reaction, is creation. The reacting, of things together, is creating, or some times known as evolving, things, from a "beginning" to and "end".
You did not need to give examples here because this is how i understood it, the second time around anyway. But I will say that with each perceived beginning there may be an, also perceived, end, however, there is no actual beginning as there was no actual end.
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:55 pmThis applies to the act of creation of mind if such a thing is possible.
But such a thing could not be possible as you have already stated, 'We have always existed as mind'. If 'we' (when who/what the 'we' actually is revealed/known, then that makes understanding ALL of this much easier), but anyway, if 'we' have ALWAYS EXISTED as 'mind', then there is, obviously, NO creation of mind.
If some thing is around forever, then it can not be created.
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:55 pmGod should have specific knowledge in order to create a mind.
Again, how could God 'create' a 'mind', if 'mind' has ALWAYS existed?
You are very close to coming to understand this fully, but you can not and will not gain fully
understanding with a contradictory view like this one is.
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:55 pmThe first premise is in fact very general and the act of creation is one example of it.
I do not understand what you mean by 'the act of creation', nor that that act being 'one example of it'. What 'act of creation', and what is the 'it'?
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:55 pmAge wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:52 pm
How all of this now fits in with the opening post argument gave me great insight into how to express better, what it is that I want to express. However, you are saying that human beings, who are free agents, are not caused/created. If you can explain how human beings exist but are not caused/created, and it makes sense, then I will change my view. But, as I SEE things now 'human beings',
who are free agents, were naturally caused/created by one thing.
I already explain what I think is true about our existence.
When did you? I must of missed it.
What is true about our existence?
How did you humans come into existence if they were not caused/created?
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:55 pmAge wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:52 pm
Do you think or believe that other things are caused/created and only human beings are not?
To me reality is very simple. It has two ingredient: 1) Minds and 2) The stuff created by minds.
How many 'minds' (with s) are there?
If there was 'stuff' before human beings existed, then where else do you propose these 'minds' are, which creates stuff?
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:55 pmThe first thing is very essence of us. The second, we experience, we live within, and we communicate by it, etc.
I do agree with you, up to a certain extent. But you will have to be able to answer the clarifying questions sufficiently and so show a uniformed picture. Answering the questions properly and correctly will show how this uniformed picture was formed. However, until then from what I see of Reality it is much simpler than how you are trying to explain it here. Although as I suggested previously you are far closer than any one else has been at understanding, and explaining this.
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:55 pmAge wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:52 pm
Or, do you think or believe that every thing is not caused/created?
The stuff that we experience is caused.
Are you able to explain who/what 'we' are/is?
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:55 pmAge wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:52 pm
If it is the latter, then how do you think every thing came to exist?
That is a little long.
I do not understand. What is a little long?
To me minds existed at the beginning. [/quote]
How many 'minds' existed at the "beginning", and when was that 'beginning'?
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:55 pmThere was nothing but minds and time (time cannot be created, I have an argument for that).
I would love to hear that argument, sometime.
So the beginning started either as a result of a Mind wishing to creating the stuff or as a result of nothingness being unstable could turns into all possible things.
Before you said, " 'minds' existed at the beginning", but now you are saying "the beginning started with 'a Mind' (or for some other reason). So, was there was one Mind, or, minds (with an s)?
A 'Mind', or 'minds', that always existed, without absolutely anything else existing, seems a bit far fetched. What seems more inconceivable that one "day" or at some point, this Mind or minds suddenly wished to create stuff. What also seems just as inconceivable is how 'nothingness' could become unstable, and then that turns into stuff.
There is a far quicker, very simply conceived, and more easily understood explanation of how ALL of this came to be.
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:55 pmThe creation or the universe is eternal in the sense that its origin lays in infinite past since time cannot be created and it is eternal.
This is all well and good. But it is contradictory to say, "minds existed at the '
beginning' ", and then say, "The creation or the universe is, '
eternal' ". If some thing has a beginning, then it obviously could not be eternal, and vice-versa, if some thing is eternal, then it obviously could not have a beginning.
Also, again how many 'minds' do you propose was at this "beginning"?
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:55 pmAge wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:52 pm
Your definition of 'God', by the way, is probably the closest, and thus best, definition from ALL the definitions of what 'God' is, which I have seen anyway, to what 'God' actually IS. Besides your misuse of the word 'Mind', (Mind is singular, so no 's'), you are just about spot on with YOUR definition for God. YOUR definition is so very close to describing and showing WHAT 'God' really IS, and how 'God' really exists.
Thank you.
Just a hint; one reason human beings have not yet unraveled the, so called, "mysteries" of the Universe, like what actually IS 'God' and so forth, yet, is because human beings think/believe that there are many "minds". Discovering and understanding what the one 'Mind' actually IS, and how It works, creates, and interacts in relation to, and with, the human brain, then the solution of HOW to solve ALL of those, past, "mysteries" starts being revealed,and becoming more obvious.
With this revealing knowledge, then comes the realization of how ALL of these answers are already KNOWN, but are, at the moment, to most human beings, just hidden. Part of this revealing knowledge contains HOW ALL of this 'knowledge' was being hidden, and more importantly, WHY it was being hidden, hitherto.