Free agent cannot be created

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Sculptor
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Sculptor » Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:22 pm

bahman wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:04 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:44 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:36 pm

Your birth is the result of the knowledge which is structured in your DNA.
DNA is not knowledge.
The sun did not know how to be created, nor the stars, nor the nebulae.
So DNA is information?
Not really.
DNA is a sequence of chemicals.
It can be used as information.

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Sculptor
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Sculptor » Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:26 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:49 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:04 pm

So DNA is information?
There is a sense in which you are able to say that DNA contains information. Information is not Knowledge. Knowledge requires a knower.
There is of course information in your DNA. Now replace knowledge by information in my argument to see what you get:

1) Causation requires information
2) Information is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore free agent cannot be caused
1) Causation is simply an expression given to a succession of events. It requires no knowledge, nor information. Shit happens, and event can lead to unstructured effects.
The end of all causality is the heat death of the universe; chaos in which there is no information at all, and no structure.
2) Chaos happens across reality all the time.
The ash from a fire is the effect caused by a match. This removes all structure from the thing burned.
4) is still meaningless.

surreptitious57
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:40 pm

Knowledge is a sub set of information because all knowledge is information but not all information is knowledge

Information in the form of knowledge is structured but information in the form of non knowledge is not structured
Non knowledge in the form of information is just random and meaningless as it contains nothing of any truth value

DNA contains instructions for what to do which technically makes it knowledge though it is actually referred to as information
That is because it does not actually know what to do but just does it automatically just like a computer running a programme

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-1-
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by -1- » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:08 am

bahman wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:49 pm
There is of course information in your DNA. Now replace knowledge by information in my argument to see what you get:

1) Causation requires information
2) Information is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore free agent cannot be caused
I don't know what you mean by free agent.

There may be a fallacy included here, called equivocation: the fallacy of using the same word that has at least two different meanings, and using the word in one sense in one assertion, in the other sense in the other assertion, and yet insisting that the meaning of the word was precisely the same in the two assertions.

I am not sure if you are committing this fallacy of equivocation.

My take on the subject is that causation always employs or obeys physical / natural laws (inlcuding psychological effects, and biological causation, not just balls colliding), which laws are not changing. The causation is random from the point of view of other laws, but they always are governed by laws. By "law" I understand a process that is set if certain conditions are set... if the conditions are the same, the process will repeat exactly as before.

In this sense, DNA does contain information in the biological sense. But it does not contain information in the physics sense, in the psychological / human comprenhension sense, in the chemical sense, or in the comical sense.

Your equivocation fallacy may come from the fact that to you information is information. You can tell a joke to a human and he will lauhg. You can tell a joke to a DNA strand or to an entire genome, and it won't laugh. The joke teller is sending out information. Only those can understand the information who are equipped to do so.

On the human level it is obvious what we mean by information. "Help me, Information, Gimme Memphis, Tennessee." Whether a molecule alone is giving information, or simply transmitting causation, is a headache to ask. In my opinion information-giving is a functionality that is multiplex; I can tell my boss which supplier to choose, and I can tell my daughter which skirt to wear to school. Whereas the DNA can only give the same information over and over again, without discerning between receptors of the information.

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bahman
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:53 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:22 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:04 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:44 pm


DNA is not knowledge.
The sun did not know how to be created, nor the stars, nor the nebulae.
So DNA is information?
Not really.
DNA is a sequence of chemicals.
It can be used as information.
OR it is better to say that DNA is a chemical sequence that information is codded in it.

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bahman
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:18 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:26 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:49 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm

There is a sense in which you are able to say that DNA contains information. Information is not Knowledge. Knowledge requires a knower.
There is of course information in your DNA. Now replace knowledge by information in my argument to see what you get:

1) Causation requires information
2) Information is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore free agent cannot be caused
1) Causation is simply an expression given to a succession of events.
Yes.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
It requires no knowledge, nor information.
There are some sort of causation that require information. Like biological causation, your growth, mental or physical.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
Shit happens, and event can lead to unstructured effects.
Oh yeah.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
The end of all causality is the heat death of the universe; chaos in which there is no information at all, and no structure.
Yes.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
2) Chaos happens across reality all the time.
But there are some levels of certainty in reality too. Your mind in fact gives the order to reality.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
The ash from a fire is the effect caused by a match. This removes all structures from the thing burned.
So what?
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
4) is still meaningless.
It is meaningfull. Any structure thing has parts, each part makes free decision, this leads to conflict of interest, therefore the structure cannot decide.

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bahman
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:58 pm

-1- wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:08 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:49 pm
There is of course information in your DNA. Now replace knowledge by information in my argument to see what you get:

1) Causation requires information
2) Information is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore free agent cannot be caused
I don't know what you mean by free agent.
By free agent I mean an agent that can resolve the conflict of interest in wanting options by a free decision.
-1- wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:08 am
There may be a fallacy included here, called equivocation: the fallacy of using the same word that has at least two different meanings, and using the word in one sense in one assertion, in the other sense in the other assertion, and yet insisting that the meaning of the word was precisely the same in the two assertions.

I am not sure if you are committing this fallacy of equivocation.
Thanks for your explanation. I am not a philosopher. I study philosophy for a while. I have a bad memory and remind the fallacy was refreshing to me. I am not making such a fallacy though.
-1- wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:08 am
My take on the subject is that causation always employs or obeys physical / natural laws (inlcuding psychological effects, and biological causation, not just balls colliding), which laws are not changing. The causation is random from the point of view of other laws, but they always are governed by laws. By "law" I understand a process that is set if certain conditions are set... if the conditions are the same, the process will repeat exactly as before.
That is the quality of matter. The problem arises when a deterministic system has to decide between two options which equally liked or when the outcome of the decision is not known.
-1- wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:08 am
In this sense, DNA does contain information in the biological sense. But it does not contain information in the physics sense, in the psychological / human comprenhension sense, in the chemical sense, or in the comical sense.
Matter is matter. It however has a set of properties that one or more of them enhance depending on the situation. Bilologically activity is rooted in physical activity. Information is simply formation of matter in specific way.
-1- wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:08 am
Your equivocation fallacy may come from the fact that to you information is information. You can tell a joke to a human and he will lauhg. You can tell a joke to a DNA strand or to an entire genome, and it won't laugh. The joke teller is sending out information. Only those can understand the information who are equipped to do so.
Information is always transmitted between intelligent agents, so-called mind.
-1- wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:08 am
On the human level it is obvious what we mean by information. "Help me, Information, Gimme Memphis, Tennessee." Whether a molecule alone is giving information, or simply transmitting causation, is a headache to ask. In my opinion information-giving is a functionality that is multiplex; I can tell my boss which supplier to choose, and I can tell my daughter which skirt to wear to school. Whereas the DNA can only give the same information over and over again, without discerning between receptors of the information.
You are the way you are because of your decisions you made in the past. Some were free, some not.

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Sculptor
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Sculptor » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:08 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:53 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:22 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:04 pm

So DNA is information?
Not really.
DNA is a sequence of chemicals.
It can be used as information.
OR it is better to say that DNA is a chemical sequence that information is codded in it.
coded, yes.

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Sculptor
Posts: 2006
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Sculptor » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:10 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:18 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:26 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:49 pm

There is of course information in your DNA. Now replace knowledge by information in my argument to see what you get:

1) Causation requires information
2) Information is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore free agent cannot be caused
1) Causation is simply an expression given to a succession of events.
Yes.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
It requires no knowledge, nor information.
There are some sort of causation that require information. Like biological causation, your growth, mental or physical.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
Shit happens, and event can lead to unstructured effects.
Oh yeah.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
The end of all causality is the heat death of the universe; chaos in which there is no information at all, and no structure.
Yes.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
2) Chaos happens across reality all the time.
But there are some levels of certainty in reality too. Your mind in fact gives the order to reality.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
The ash from a fire is the effect caused by a match. This removes all structures from the thing burned.
So what?
SO what is because you said "3) Therefore any caused thing is structured". A fire is caused and looses structure.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
4) is still meaningless.
It is meaningfull. Any structure thing has parts, each part makes free decision, this leads to conflict of interest, therefore the structure cannot decide.

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bahman
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Fri May 01, 2020 9:34 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:10 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:18 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:26 pm

1) Causation is simply an expression given to a succession of events.
Yes.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
It requires no knowledge, nor information.
There are some sort of causation that require information. Like biological causation, your growth, mental or physical.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
Shit happens, and event can lead to unstructured effects.
Oh yeah.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
The end of all causality is the heat death of the universe; chaos in which there is no information at all, and no structure.
Yes.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
2) Chaos happens across reality all the time.
But there are some levels of certainty in reality too. Your mind in fact gives the order to reality.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
The ash from a fire is the effect caused by a match. This removes all structures from the thing burned.
So what?
SO what is because you said "3) Therefore any caused thing is structured". A fire is caused and looses structure.
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm
4) is still meaningless.
It is meaningfull. Any structure thing has parts, each part makes free decision, this leads to conflict of interest, therefore the structure cannot decide.
But the fire has a functioning too. The quantum reality is about information. From Wiki: The wave function, provides information about the probability amplitude of energy, momentum, and other physical properties of matter.

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-1-
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by -1- » Sat May 02, 2020 10:08 am

bahman wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:58 pm
The problem arises when a deterministic system has to decide between two options which equally liked or when the outcome of the decision is not known.
You described the problems of determinism perfectly. Interestingly, these problems only arise in biological movements, and in sub-atomic (quantum mechanical, in other words, Quantanameranical) movements.

I say it's interesting, because the deterministic model is best explained by balls colliding. That mental image is built on classical physics. But go below classical physics, into quantum mechanics, or into a superstructure of matter, into biological movement, and determinism has got problems all of a sudden.

I don't know how to solve those problems.

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bahman
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Sat May 02, 2020 8:04 pm

-1- wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 10:08 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:58 pm
The problem arises when a deterministic system has to decide between two options which equally liked or when the outcome of the decision is not known.
You described the problems of determinism perfectly. Interestingly, these problems only arise in biological movements, and in sub-atomic (quantum mechanical, in other words, Quantanameranical) movements.

I say it's interesting, because the deterministic model is best explained by balls colliding. That mental image is built on classical physics. But go below classical physics, into quantum mechanics, or into a superstructure of matter, into biological movement, and determinism has got problems all of a sudden.

I don't know how to solve those problems.
Matter behaves in a deterministic way in quantum regime too. The Schrodinger equation is a deterministic equation. The Schrodinger equation is an equation for spread of information. Mind is the solution to those problems. There are minds interacting through information.

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-1-
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by -1- » Tue May 12, 2020 1:57 am

bahman wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 8:04 pm
Matter behaves in a deterministic way in quantum regime too. The Schrodinger equation is a deterministic equation. The Schrodinger equation is an equation for spread of information. Mind is the solution to those problems. There are minds interacting through information.
Interesting. I don't know what the Schroedinger equation is, and if I did, I would not understand it. Do you?

What are the problems that the mind is a solution to? The problems I mentioned with regard to determinism? If yes, well, okay. No need to explain.

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bahman
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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by bahman » Tue May 12, 2020 7:20 pm

-1- wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 1:57 am
bahman wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 8:04 pm
Matter behaves in a deterministic way in quantum regime too. The Schrodinger equation is a deterministic equation. The Schrodinger equation is an equation for spread of information. Mind is the solution to those problems. There are minds interacting through information.
Interesting. I don't know what the Schroedinger equation is, and if I did, I would not understand it. Do you?
Oh yeah I understand it. The matter is basically information, the information is the formation of a substance. The Schroedinger equation basically tells us how the information moves around. It is a deterministic equation, deterministic means that given the information at now, the information in the future can uniquely be determined.
-1- wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 1:57 am
What are the problems that the mind is a solution to?
The problem is that matter cannot decide since it is deterministic. The decision is due to a free agent.
-1- wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 1:57 am
The problems I mentioned with regard to determinism? If yes, well, okay. No need to explain.
You clearly realized that a deterministic thing cannot decide.

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Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by -1- » Thu May 14, 2020 4:29 am

bahman wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:20 pm
The Schroedinger equation basically tells us how the information moves around. It is a deterministic equation, deterministic means that given the information at now, the information in the future can uniquely be determined.
Whoa. That's not how a proper interpretation of an equation is. Instead, you must write down the equation, name every variable in it, and give them meaning, and then explain how you got from the equation to what you claim it means.

Can you do that too? If yes, please demonstrate. That is, please do the following if you want to gain some credibility for your claim:

Quote Schroedinger's equation precisely as written
name each variable and give them meaning
explain how your interpretation follows from the equation.

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