Not really.
DNA is a sequence of chemicals.
It can be used as information.
1) Causation is simply an expression given to a succession of events. It requires no knowledge, nor information. Shit happens, and event can lead to unstructured effects.bahman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:49 pmThere is of course information in your DNA. Now replace knowledge by information in my argument to see what you get:
1) Causation requires information
2) Information is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore free agent cannot be caused
I don't know what you mean by free agent.bahman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:49 pm There is of course information in your DNA. Now replace knowledge by information in my argument to see what you get:
1) Causation requires information
2) Information is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore free agent cannot be caused
Yes.Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:26 pm1) Causation is simply an expression given to a succession of events.bahman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:49 pmThere is of course information in your DNA. Now replace knowledge by information in my argument to see what you get:
1) Causation requires information
2) Information is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore free agent cannot be caused
There are some sort of causation that require information. Like biological causation, your growth, mental or physical.
Oh yeah.
Yes.
But there are some levels of certainty in reality too. Your mind in fact gives the order to reality.
So what?
It is meaningfull. Any structure thing has parts, each part makes free decision, this leads to conflict of interest, therefore the structure cannot decide.
By free agent I mean an agent that can resolve the conflict of interest in wanting options by a free decision.-1- wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:08 amI don't know what you mean by free agent.bahman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:49 pm There is of course information in your DNA. Now replace knowledge by information in my argument to see what you get:
1) Causation requires information
2) Information is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore free agent cannot be caused
Thanks for your explanation. I am not a philosopher. I study philosophy for a while. I have a bad memory and remind the fallacy was refreshing to me. I am not making such a fallacy though.-1- wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:08 am There may be a fallacy included here, called equivocation: the fallacy of using the same word that has at least two different meanings, and using the word in one sense in one assertion, in the other sense in the other assertion, and yet insisting that the meaning of the word was precisely the same in the two assertions.
I am not sure if you are committing this fallacy of equivocation.
That is the quality of matter. The problem arises when a deterministic system has to decide between two options which equally liked or when the outcome of the decision is not known.-1- wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:08 am My take on the subject is that causation always employs or obeys physical / natural laws (inlcuding psychological effects, and biological causation, not just balls colliding), which laws are not changing. The causation is random from the point of view of other laws, but they always are governed by laws. By "law" I understand a process that is set if certain conditions are set... if the conditions are the same, the process will repeat exactly as before.
Matter is matter. It however has a set of properties that one or more of them enhance depending on the situation. Bilologically activity is rooted in physical activity. Information is simply formation of matter in specific way.
Information is always transmitted between intelligent agents, so-called mind.-1- wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:08 am Your equivocation fallacy may come from the fact that to you information is information. You can tell a joke to a human and he will lauhg. You can tell a joke to a DNA strand or to an entire genome, and it won't laugh. The joke teller is sending out information. Only those can understand the information who are equipped to do so.
You are the way you are because of your decisions you made in the past. Some were free, some not.-1- wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:08 am On the human level it is obvious what we mean by information. "Help me, Information, Gimme Memphis, Tennessee." Whether a molecule alone is giving information, or simply transmitting causation, is a headache to ask. In my opinion information-giving is a functionality that is multiplex; I can tell my boss which supplier to choose, and I can tell my daughter which skirt to wear to school. Whereas the DNA can only give the same information over and over again, without discerning between receptors of the information.
SO what is because you said "3) Therefore any caused thing is structured". A fire is caused and looses structure.bahman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:18 pmYes.Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:26 pm1) Causation is simply an expression given to a succession of events.bahman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:49 pm
There is of course information in your DNA. Now replace knowledge by information in my argument to see what you get:
1) Causation requires information
2) Information is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore free agent cannot be caused
There are some sort of causation that require information. Like biological causation, your growth, mental or physical.
Oh yeah.
Yes.
But there are some levels of certainty in reality too. Your mind in fact gives the order to reality.
So what?
But the fire has a functioning too. The quantum reality is about information. From Wiki: The wave function, provides information about the probability amplitude of energy, momentum, and other physical properties of matter.Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:10 pmSO what is because you said "3) Therefore any caused thing is structured". A fire is caused and looses structure.
You described the problems of determinism perfectly. Interestingly, these problems only arise in biological movements, and in sub-atomic (quantum mechanical, in other words, Quantanameranical) movements.
Matter behaves in a deterministic way in quantum regime too. The Schrodinger equation is a deterministic equation. The Schrodinger equation is an equation for spread of information. Mind is the solution to those problems. There are minds interacting through information.-1- wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 10:08 amYou described the problems of determinism perfectly. Interestingly, these problems only arise in biological movements, and in sub-atomic (quantum mechanical, in other words, Quantanameranical) movements.
I say it's interesting, because the deterministic model is best explained by balls colliding. That mental image is built on classical physics. But go below classical physics, into quantum mechanics, or into a superstructure of matter, into biological movement, and determinism has got problems all of a sudden.
I don't know how to solve those problems.
Interesting. I don't know what the Schroedinger equation is, and if I did, I would not understand it. Do you?bahman wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 8:04 pm Matter behaves in a deterministic way in quantum regime too. The Schrodinger equation is a deterministic equation. The Schrodinger equation is an equation for spread of information. Mind is the solution to those problems. There are minds interacting through information.
Oh yeah I understand it. The matter is basically information, the information is the formation of a substance. The Schroedinger equation basically tells us how the information moves around. It is a deterministic equation, deterministic means that given the information at now, the information in the future can uniquely be determined.-1- wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 1:57 amInteresting. I don't know what the Schroedinger equation is, and if I did, I would not understand it. Do you?bahman wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 8:04 pm Matter behaves in a deterministic way in quantum regime too. The Schrodinger equation is a deterministic equation. The Schrodinger equation is an equation for spread of information. Mind is the solution to those problems. There are minds interacting through information.
The problem is that matter cannot decide since it is deterministic. The decision is due to a free agent.
You clearly realized that a deterministic thing cannot decide.
Whoa. That's not how a proper interpretation of an equation is. Instead, you must write down the equation, name every variable in it, and give them meaning, and then explain how you got from the equation to what you claim it means.