Free agent cannot be created

So what's really going on?

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Age
Posts: 3112
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:22 am

Atla wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:25 am
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:00 am
...
Okay you read the words but can't remember the context, can't remember earlier sentences, can't remember earlier comments, even if something was already stated 20 times. You can't even process a longer sentence.
You deeply misunderstand what others write, don't understand what beliefs are to most humans, you can't tell if someone writes with absolute certainty or not etc.

You say you've had many dealings with psychiatrist. You think you/we speak from the absolute like you/we were the voice of God in a way. You are deeply clinging to some of your delusions and are trying to make others realize that they are the delusional ones. Do you have a diagnosis of schizophrenia? (If yes then you should get tested for food allergies and food intolerances, especially dairy/gluten/yeast, and autoimmune problems in general, it's little known but these can really mess up the brain/mind functioning. Big Pharma isn't interested in healing people so natural remedies are suppressed.)
WHAT are you talking about now???

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Logik » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:44 am

Age wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:32 pm
Logik wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:04 pm
And before you even ask (because I know you will). Yes I am 100% certain.
WHAT did you ASSUME I was going to ask?
I didn't ASSUME anything.

What I KNEW and I was 100% certain of is that you are going to ask a question.

Q.E.D.

So, here is one thing you believe: That I assumed something.

Age
Posts: 3112
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:50 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:44 am
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:32 pm
Logik wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:04 pm
And before you even ask (because I know you will). Yes I am 100% certain.
WHAT did you ASSUME I was going to ask?
I didn't ASSUME anything.

What I KNEW and I was 100% certain of is that you are going to ask a question.

Q.E.D.

So, here is one thing you believe: That I assumed something.
But I did NOT believe that, nor any thing else, I made an ASSUMPTION that you ASSUMED some thing.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Logik » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:00 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:50 pm
But I did NOT believe that, nor any thing else, I made an ASSUMPTION that you ASSUMED some thing.
You seem to draw a distinction between assumptions and beliefs.

Could you explain this difference to us?

Age
Posts: 3112
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:54 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:00 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:50 pm
But I did NOT believe that, nor any thing else, I made an ASSUMPTION that you ASSUMED some thing.
You seem to draw a distinction between assumptions and beliefs.

Could you explain this difference to us?
To me,
Along a linear scale of being open to being closed, assumptions are in between the ends , while beliefs are at the closed end.

Assumptions can very easily come into thought on a sub-conscious or an unconscious level. Assumptions can creep into thought without being recognized that they are even there. As you have just so rightly SHOWN and pointed out to me.

Beliefs, however, come from a conscious level, as some thing has to be believed to be true for it to become a belief.

Thought, containing assumptions, is some thing that has to be constantly monitored for. Making assumptions can happen effortlessly.
Thought, containing beliefs, can always be observed because a conscious effort is needed in the first place to believe some thing is true.

Assumptions can distort and prevent the actual Truth from being seen.
Beliefs can completely stop the actual Truth from being seen.

An example of the distinction between an assumption and a belief is; when you explained that you did NOT ASSUME anything.
If I ASSUMED that you did ASSUME some thing, (which is the ASSUMPTION that i did make, and had), then i am far more open to listening to what you had to say, and am far more open to being accepting of what you say.
If, however, I BELIEVED that you did ASSUME some thing, then i would be far more closed to what you had to say, and most likely NEVER going to being accepting of what you say, that is; if what you say is NOT in contrary to what I already BELIEVED is true.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Logik » Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:07 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:54 pm
Along a linear scale of being open to being closed, assumptions are in between the ends , while beliefs are at the closed end.
When people speak of belief they speak about the scale itself. Not any particular position/value ON the scale.

Primarily because the values at either closed end are unattainable.

By your definition of belief - there is not a single person on this forum who has any.
For absolute beliefs are unchangeable. And unchangeable beliefs are called dogma.

Age
Posts: 3112
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:33 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:07 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:54 pm
Along a linear scale of being open to being closed, assumptions are in between the ends , while beliefs are at the closed end.
When people speak of belief they speak about the scale itself. Not any particular position/value ON the scale.
Are you speaking for ALL people here?

And, it does NOT matter if most people do, or even what ALL people do, you asked for My distinction between assumptions and beliefs, and I gave mine.
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:07 pm
Primarily because the values at either closed end are unattainable.
Are you absolutely sure of this?
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:07 pm
By your definition of belief - there is not a single person on this forum who has any.
Are you sure of this also?
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:07 pm
For absolute beliefs are unchangeable. And unchangeable beliefs are called dogma.
Tell me how a belief, which by my definition is believed to be true, can be changed WHILST the BELIEF is being HELD ON TO and/or MAINTAINED?

OBVIOUSLY BELIEFS can be changed. You, adult human beings, are forever changing your BELIEFS, some more than others. You change them
whenever it suits you, and when you NEED to, to fit in with your other BELIEFS, which are also changing, some times quite frequently. But, also as OBVIOUS is the fact that IF, and whilst, a BELIEF is being HELD ON TO, then THAT BELIEF can NOT be changed. One BELIEF has to be first 'let go of' BEFORE it could be changed into another BELIEF.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Logik » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:55 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:33 pm
Are you speaking for ALL people here?
No. Your all-or-nothing thinking is getting tiresome. It's safe to assume/believe that when I speak about reality I speak and think along continuums.

And so - I am speaking for some of the people, not all of the people. It so happens to be some of the people happen to be the majority (but not all) of the people.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:33 pm
And, it does NOT matter if most people do, or even what ALL people do, you asked for My distinction between assumptions and beliefs, and I gave mine.
So you don't have any beliefs but you have many assumptions? By your definition I don't have any beliefs either.
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:33 pm
Are you absolutely sure of this?
No. It's only my strongest held assumption.
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:07 pm
By your definition of belief - there is not a single person on this forum who has any.
Are you sure of this also?
Yes I am sure. But I don't believe it.
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:07 pm
Tell me how a belief, which by my definition is believed to be true, can be changed WHILST the BELIEF is being HELD ON TO and/or MAINTAINED?
It cannot be changed. Absolute belief (as you defined it - the extreme right of the belief-scale) means "infinite belief". Infinite belief requires infinite evidence to be swayed.

Which is the same as saying "I cannot be swayed". Because we do not have infinite evidence on any matter.
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:07 pm
OBVIOUSLY BELIEFS can be changed.
You contradict your own definition. If a belief can be swayed the it was never absolute.

Age
Posts: 3112
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:48 am

Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:55 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:33 pm
Are you speaking for ALL people here?
No. Your all-or-nothing thinking is getting tiresome.
I do NOT want to make assumptions, so I was just clarifying. After all some people like to believe that they can, and do, speak for ALL people. I was just checking to see if you thought that you were one of those people.

Also, asking clarifying questions is NOT necessarily speaking from all-or-nothing thinking at all. In fact, with my next quote below, which was WITH this one, then it would be quite OBVIOUS that I was NOT thinking 'all-or-nothing' at all. So, I am NOT sure HOW you arrived at this 'all-or-nothing thinking' conclusion.

I could probably ask you for clarification at HOW you derived to such a WRONG conclusion, but then you might jump to some other, obviously, wrong conclusion also.

Why is it so hard for adult human beings to just answer a question without jumping to some sort of conclusion about what is being asked? You can just take My word, literally, for what I say as being 'what is said', that is; when I ask a clarifying question, then the only reason is for clarity.

By the way if you do NOT like my clarifying questions, asked to you, or you find this unsure, inquisitive thinking tiresome, then surely you would KNOW what to do now.
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:55 pm
It's safe to assume/believe that when I speak about reality I speak and think along continuums.
When you speak of 'reality', is that YOUR reality, or, the bigger, more Truthful reality?
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:55 pm
And so - I am speaking for some of the people, not all of the people. It so happens to be some of the people happen to be the majority (but not all) of the people.
Are you sure that when you speak for the people that it is actually for the 'majority' of the people? Also, when you are speaking for the, alleged, "majority", of the people, then how often, along the continuum, do you propose that you are doing this?

Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:55 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:33 pm
And, it does NOT matter if most people do, or even what ALL people do, you asked for My distinction between assumptions and beliefs, and I gave mine.
So you don't have any beliefs but you have many assumptions?
What are you defining 'many' as here? As this will influence if my answer will be "RIGHT" or "WRONG".

I do NOT want to make any assumptions, so I NEVER consciously make them. But on occasions i do assume things, unintentionally, as you have proven by SHOWING of them here for us, and of which I am grateful. If you do notice other assumptions that I make I would very much appreciate it if you would EXPOSE those ones also.

The more WRONG, which i am doing, that i am directed to, then the better i can become.
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:55 pm
By your definition I don't have any beliefs either.
Okay, then that is great. You will be more open.
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:55 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:33 pm
Are you absolutely sure of this?
No. It's only my strongest held assumption.
But WHY hold on to an assumption at all? And, WHY are some of your made up assumptions more strongly held on to then others are?
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:55 pm
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:07 pm
By your definition of belief - there is not a single person on this forum who has any.
Are you sure of this also?
Yes I am sure. But I don't believe it.
Well, to me, anyway, that is a great way that you are now thinking, and are now seeing things. Let us SEE how long this will last for.

I, however, have seen people in this forum who have beliefs, from my definition. For these people they can NOT even LOOK AT their BELIEFS as even possibly being changed. There are countless examples of this behavior happening here, in this forum, and continuing to happen.

Maybe you have misinterpreted my definition of the word 'belief'. Would you like to elaborate on what my definition of the word 'belief' is, to you?
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:55 pm
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:07 pm
Tell me how a belief, which by my definition is believed to be true, can be changed WHILST the BELIEF is being HELD ON TO and/or MAINTAINED?
It cannot be changed.
That is how I SEE this also.
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:55 pm
Absolute belief (as you defined it - the extreme right of the belief-scale) means "infinite belief".
But I NEVER used the word 'absolute', that is of your doing. I also did NOT define belief on a belief-scale. I give words specific definitions. I do this so ambiguity does NOT so easily occur. If there is any sort of scale to the definition of a word, then a misunderstanding can to easily happen. Also, the conclusion and term 'infinite belief' is some thing else of your doing, NOT mine.
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:55 pm
Infinite belief requires infinite evidence to be swayed.
If that is what you so believe.
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:55 pm
Which is the same as saying "I cannot be swayed". Because we do not have infinite evidence on any matter.
To people who are holding and maintaining a BELIEF, then they can NOT be swayed. As you so rightly alluded to, because even with an infinite amount of contrary actual evidence to a BELIEF some people just can NOT be swayed at all.
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:07 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:33 pm
OBVIOUSLY BELIEFS can be changed.
You contradict your own definition.
I did NOT contradict my own definition at all.

If you left in ALL of what I wrote with this quote, then it would be CLEARLY SEEN that I did NOT contradict this response.

I will SHOW what I wrote again, just in case you missed it.

You, adult human beings, are forever changing your BELIEFS, some more than others.

You change them whenever it suits you, and when you NEED to, to fit in with your other BELIEFS, which are also changing, some times quite frequently.

But, also as OBVIOUS is the fact that IF, and whilst, a BELIEF is being HELD ON TO, then THAT BELIEF can NOT be changed.

One BELIEF has to be first 'let go of' BEFORE it could be changed into another BELIEF.


The last statement in italics CLEARLY SHOWS that I did NOT contradict any thing, as I STATED how and when BELIEFS can and do CHANGE.

So, I have explained HOW, WHEN and WHY BELIEFS can NOT change, AND, I also have explained HOW, WHEN and WHY BELIEFS can, and do, change.
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:07 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:33 pm
Logik wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:07 pm
If a belief can be swayed the it was never absolute.
Are you sure of this?
What do you call a BELIEF, at the moment that it can NOT be swayed?
To me it is possible that ALL beliefs CAN be swayed, with and through the RIGHT terminology/language. However, learning HOW to communicate that RIGHT terminology/language, for ALL BELIEFS, just takes some time. For the obvious reason that ALL adult human beings have varying BELIEFS.

ALL BELIEFS can be swayed/changed with the RIGHT language, but until that language COMES TO LIGHT, then whilst BELIEFS are being HELD and/or MAINTAINED, then those BELIEFS can not be swayed/changed.

A 'HELD BELIEF' is just having a belief, which takes conscious effort.
A 'MAINTAINED BELIEF' is just bias confirming, (of an already held belief), which can happen on the three levels of consciously, sub-consciously, and unconsciously.

Atla
Posts: 2321
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Atla » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:25 am

Age wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:22 am
WHAT are you talking about now???
How you could maybe become less mentally damaged, although I don't see it happening.

Age
Posts: 3112
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Age » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:40 am

Atla wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:25 am
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:22 am
WHAT are you talking about now???
How you could maybe become less mentally damaged, although I don't see it happening.
To you, I am to far mentally damaged to be healed right, especially considering that I say/suggest that within every body there is/could be an ABSOLUTE Being?

That just could NOT even be possible, in any way known, correct?
,
Only the mentally damaged would even consider such a thing, am I right?

Considering you come across as having ALL of the mental faculties working PERFECTLY, would you care to inform us, mentally damaged ones, what the actual and Real Truth IS then?

Atla
Posts: 2321
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Atla » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:51 am

Age wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:40 am
To you, I am to far mentally damaged to be healed right
Nope
especially considering that I say/suggest that within every body there is/could be an ABSOLUTE Being?
Anything's possible but as long as there is zero evidence for it, it's probably just a delusion.
We are all the "absolute", but it's not a being, the absolute doesn't feel like anything, we don't get anything from it.
That just could NOT even be possible, in any way known, correct?
That's correct, not in any way known.
Only the mentally damaged would even consider such a thing, am I right?
Nope
Considering you come across as having ALL of the mental faculties working PERFECTLY, would you care to inform us, mentally damaged ones, what the actual and Real Truth IS then?
No one knows for 100% certain, but as things stand: that you are just that human being, making that absolute being up. Who knows why. (One possibility is that it's some version of schizophrenia where you aren't intentionally making it up, it just appears in your mind. If so then a good idea would be to test for food allergies.)

Dimebag
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:12 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Dimebag » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:28 am

People need to detach from their egos here for a minute and attempt to find a common understanding, it’s just ridiculous reading this back and forth.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Logik » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm

Dimebag wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:28 am
People need to detach from their egos here for a minute and attempt to find a common understanding, it’s just ridiculous reading this back and forth.
But what would remain of philosophy if everyone agreed?

Contrarianism, evasiveness and equivocation guarantees job security.

Dimebag
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:12 am

Re: Free agent cannot be created

Post by Dimebag » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:24 am

Logik wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm
Dimebag wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:28 am
People need to detach from their egos here for a minute and attempt to find a common understanding, it’s just ridiculous reading this back and forth.
But what would remain of philosophy if everyone agreed?

Contrarianism, evasiveness and equivocation guarantees job security.
I guess it depends on a persons purpose for doing philosophy. If your aim is simply to debate your point ad infinitum then I guess that is being achieved, but if your aim is to have an honest conversation with the possibility of both parties learning something then I think it’s important to not keep your positions so heavily fortified in the rare event that you might have something to learn from others.

I’m not point the finger at you in particular but this conversation in general is basically like WWI trench warfare.

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