Can God be beyond the universe?

[devans99]

And furthermore, why in the world would you assume that dinosaurs would have evolved into something “better” than humans? ? ?

If the asteroid strike had not occurred the dinosaurs would have had more time to evolve into intelligent creatures. More time means they would have surpassed us by now - an extra 65 million years of evolution is a long time. Imagine where the human race will be in 65 million years.

My guess is that God created the universe as a starting point. Once intelligent creatures are fully evolved, God expects them to take control of their environment and perfect it. So God is benevolent but has limited powers. We need to finish the job of creating an optimal world ourselves.

We need to develop better tasting vegan food so the whole of the human race can become vegan. All carnivorous animals should be chemically neutered. We can deal with any resulting overpopulation of a particular species using the same technology. Its a long term project to create utopia on earth but we should make it eventually.

[Logik]

If the asteroid strike had not occurred the dinosaurs would have had more time to evolve into intelligent creatures. More time means they would have surpassed us by now - an extra 65 million years of evolution is a long time. Imagine where the human race will be in 65 million years.

The dinosaurs were around for 180 million years. Chickens and crocodiles are descendants of the dinosaurs - so the have had (give or take) 250 million years of evolution to account for their intellect.

[devans99]

If the asteroid strike had not occurred the dinosaurs would have had more time to evolve into intelligent creatures. More time means they would have surpassed us by now - an extra 65 million years of evolution is a long time. Imagine where the human race will be in 65 million years.

The dinosaurs were around for 180 million years. Chickens and crocodiles are descendants of the dinosaurs - so the have had (give or take) 250 million years of evolution to account for their intellect.

We are descendants of the dinosaurs too. The dinosaurs were getting smarter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenonych ... inosauroid"

[seeds]

And furthermore, why in the world would you assume that dinosaurs would have evolved into something “better” than humans? ? ?

If the asteroid strike had not occurred the dinosaurs would have had more time to evolve into intelligent creatures. More time means they would have surpassed us by now - an extra 65 million years of evolution is a long time. Imagine where the human race will be in 65 million years.

My guess is that God created the universe as a starting point. Once intelligent creatures are fully evolved, God expects them to take control of their environment and perfect it. So God is benevolent but has limited powers. We need to finish the job of creating an optimal world ourselves.

Speculatively speaking, I suggest that the ultimate goal of evolution has already been achieved.

And that goal was the manifestation of a brain that is capable of producing the conditions wherein the essence of life can be focalized and awakened into a new and eternal soul – a soul that is created in the image of the Soul of the universe (God).

I am speaking of an entity (you, devans99) whose ultimate and eternal purpose will play-out in a higher (transcendent) context of reality that exists above and outside of the corporeal bounds of our physical bodies.

In other words, creating an optimal utopian world within the confines of the universe sounds nice, but again, it is not the ultimate goal** of the “intelligently-guided” evolution of life on earth.

**It is important to note that the “ultimate goal” mentioned above could have been achieved no matter what the original source of the evolutionary stream may have been (be it mammalian, reptilian, avian, or even insectoid, etc.).

And what that means is that God’s goal of creating new eternal souls (i.e., God’s literal offspring) can be achieved on any viable planet within the entire universe, and their temporary physical bodies don’t have to resemble ours.
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[devans99]

Speculatively speaking, I suggest that the ultimate goal of evolution has already been achieved.

And that goal was the manifestation of a brain that is capable of producing the conditions wherein the essence of life can be focalized and awakened into a new and eternal soul – a soul that is created in the image of the Soul of the universe (God).

I am speaking of an entity (you, devans99) whose ultimate and eternal purpose will play-out in a higher (transcendent) context of reality that exists above and outside of the corporeal bounds of our physical bodies.

In other words, creating an optimal utopian world within the confines of the universe sounds nice, but again, it is not the ultimate goal** of the “intelligently-guided” evolution of life on earth.

**It is important to note that the “ultimate goal” mentioned above could have been achieved no matter what the original source of the evolutionary stream may have been (be it mammalian, reptilian, avian, or even insectoid, etc.).

And what that means is that God’s goal of creating new eternal souls (i.e., God’s literal offspring) can be achieved on any viable planet within the entire universe, and their temporary physical bodies don’t have to resemble ours.
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I'm a believer in Occam's Razor. I don't see why God would have more than one 'context of reality'; it seems inefficient. Why would he create this universe (including some evil) if he had another universe or 'context of reality' already that we would ultimately and eternally end up in. I think there is one universe; this one. We have eternal existence (I believe in circular time) in this universe so its up to us to make the best of it by eliminating evil wherever we can.

[Logik]

Everything should be as simple as possible but no simpler.

Is it impossible that our theories are on the wrong side of simplicity?

[bahman]

What the heck does “absolutely good” even mean?

Absolutely good means without any evil, badness, etc.

That which is absolutely good for the lion’s survival (claws, fangs, stealth), is bad/evil for the zebra.

That which was bad/evil for the dinosaurs (an asteroid hit on the planet), was absolutely good for the development of mammals (humans).

That which is bad/evil for humans (a devastating flood, for example), is absolutely good for replenishing the ground water and soil nutrients.

The list goes on and on.

So what exactly would the universe (as in life on earth) look like under your simplistic interpretation of what absolutely good means?
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What is wrong with a universe that all lion are vegetarian? Dinosaurs? Create the earth large enough so both human and dinosaurs could live together. etc.

[seeds]

I'm a believer in Occam's Razor.

Did it ever occur to you that using Occam’s Razor while existing in the fog of ignorance and false assumptions regarding the ultimate truth of reality (i.e., the default state of all of humanity ), might cause one to slice-off more than one should?

I don't see why God would have more than one 'context of reality'; it seems inefficient. Why would he create this universe (including some evil) if he had another universe or 'context of reality' already that we would ultimately and eternally end up in.

I suggest that the universe is the way it is because its utilitarian construction represents the prerequisite “nuts and bolts” (womb-like) context of reality that is required to conceive and awaken a new eternal soul into existence. And that is in direct opposition to the notion that souls can simply be created from nothingness at the snap of divine fingers.

The point is that even God requires a logically structured process and method when it comes to conceiving and birthing “Its” offspring...

...(Note: I said “Its” instead of “His” or “Her,” however, all three of those words are wrong. The problem is that we have no pronouns that truly fit what I believe is a “genderless, wholeness of being” that we will all acquire in the aforementioned higher context of reality).

Again, I am merely speculating here, but I strongly suggest that the problem with most humans not being able to comprehend or recognize the existence of higher and lower contexts of reality...

...is due to the fact that we are simply (and momentarily) being subjected to the same kind of dilemma that we previously experienced as fetuses within our mother’s womb - as is depicted in one of my fanciful illustrations:



(For an easier to read view of the dialogue (and more illustrations), click on the following link to my website - http://www.theultimateseeds.com/murmurings.htm)

In other words, just as a human fetus – suspended within the warm living essence of its mother’s womb – is incapable of comprehending the higher level of consciousness and the transcendent (outer) context of the living entity that momentarily contains it, likewise, we (i.e., our “created in the image of God” souls/minds) are in that same situation relative to God.

In which case (and as it relates to the OP question), can you not see how it is possible that God...

(or more specifically, the alternate context of reality in which God’s true and ultimate form is actually perceivable)

...exists outside and “beyond the universe”?**

**(If any of this is even remotely interesting, then click on the above link and scroll down through my metaphorical illustrations.)
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[devans99]

In other words, just as a human fetus – suspended within the warm living essence of its mother’s womb – is incapable of comprehending the higher level of consciousness and the transcendent (outer) context of the living entity that momentarily contains it, likewise, we (i.e., our “created in the image of God” souls/minds) are in that same situation relative to God.

In which case (and as it relates to the OP question), can you not see how it is possible that God...

(or more specifically, the alternate context of reality in which God’s true and ultimate form is actually perceivable)

...exists outside and “beyond the universe”?**

**(If any of this is even remotely interesting, then click on the above link and scroll down through my metaphorical illustrations.)
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I think that the saying 'great minds think alike' can be applied to God and humans. We may not be as smart as God but on the basics, we should agree. So I'd expect God to be an Occam's Razor fan. But I suppose there could be complications I'm unaware of.

So God exists beyond the universe maybe. Does he have his own version of time to get things done? Don't suppose you have an answer to the chicken and egg problem (IE who created God's time, or if God's time is presentist, who created God). Making God eternal outside time does not seem to work - means that he can't change at all so how did he create the universe?

[seeds]

I think that the saying 'great minds think alike' can be applied to God and humans.

Okay, but can the saying “great minds think alike” also be applied to humans and amoebas? Because from my personal perspective of God, that’s basically how the contrast should be envisioned.

So God exists beyond the universe maybe.

Not meaning to be confusing here, but actually, no, God does not exist beyond the universe, at least not in the way that your statement implies.

What I said earlier is that the “alternate context of reality” in which God’s ultimate form is “perceivable,” exists beyond (outside of) the universe, not God. - (Did you click on the link to my illustrations? - http://www.theultimateseeds.com/murmurings.htm).

If you are not closed to the concept of idealism, then the fact of the matter is that God no more exists beyond the universe than you exist beyond your own mind. And that’s because our universe is the literal mind of God.

Think of the God that I am describing as being an amalgamation of that which is represented by both Panentheism and Berkeleyanism:

pan•en•the•ism
noun: panentheism
...the belief or doctrine that God is greater than the universe and includes and interpenetrates it.

Berkeleyanism
...the system of philosophical idealism developed by George Berkeley (1685?-1753), especially his tenet that the physical world does not have an independent reality but exists as a perception of the divine mind and the finite mind of man.

(Continued in next post)
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[seeds]

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(Continued from prior post)

Does he have his own version of time to get things done?

I speculatively suggest that within his own context of existence, God is surely subject to the linearity of time.

I mean, how could any self-aware entity, regardless of the context of reality in which it resides, not be conscious of the fact that the “now” it is presently experiencing must constantly be giving-way to an endless (and seamless) stream of future nows (hence a forward-moving arrow of time)?

However, within the context of the universe, God would not be limited by the speed of light.

In other words, seeing how the universe is God’s own personal mind (as was suggested in the prior post), then logically, he (his central consciousness) can access any point within the universe “instantly” at the speed of thought. And that would be in precisely the same way that you can access any point within your own mind instantly (theoretically speaking).

Don't suppose you have an answer to the chicken and egg problem (IE who created God's time, or if God's time is presentist, who created God).

I have often stated that the most perplexing mystery of all is the infinite regression that arises when one tries to imagine the origin of reality, or the emergence of somethingness from true nothingness.

Whether it be from the perspective of pure materialism (as in from whence did the material fabric of the universe come from?)...

...or...

...from the perspective of pure spiritualism (as in from whence did the essence of life and mind come from?), the problem of infinite regress is unavoidable in either situation.

The main difference is that at least from the spiritual perspective everything is founded upon living intelligence and an inherent (eternal) purpose to our existence, as opposed to the nihilism and oblivion implicit in chance-based materialism.

Indeed, from the life-imbued perspective, I can easily imagine the Creator of our universe as being born in a prior universe (14 billion years ago? 14 trillion years ago?) in precisely the same way that we have been born in this one - as is depicted in yet another of my fanciful illustrations:



(Again, for an “easier to read” version of the above, click on the following link and then click on the image to expand it - http://www.theultimateseeds.com/Images/ ... %20God.jpg))

Furthermore, I can mentally project that infinitely regressing stream of (still living) parent universes as far back as eternity itself. However, I simply cannot fathom how it all began, nor can I imagine that it had no beginning and simply “always was.”

The mystery is so profound that I have often wondered if even God knows the answer.

Nevertheless, the point is that materialism faces that exact same regression problem, along with the added implausibility of the unfathomable order of the universe occurring by chance.

So pick your poison.
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[devans99]

Furthermore, I can mentally project that infinitely regressing stream of (still living) parent universes as far back as eternity itself. However, I simply cannot fathom how it all began, nor can I imagine that it had no beginning and simply “always was.”

The mystery is so profound that I have often wondered if even God knows the answer.

Nevertheless, the point is that materialism faces that exact same regression problem, along with the added implausibly of the unfathomable order of the universe occurring by chance.

So pick your poison.
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Right, so surely it has to be circular then? Time I mean; thats the only way out of the chicken and egg problem. The start of the universe was caused by the end of the universe. The big crunch causing the big bang in an eternal loop.

[seeds]

Right, so surely it has to be circular then? Time I mean; thats the only way out of the chicken and egg problem. The start of the universe was caused by the end of the universe. The big crunch causing the big bang in an eternal loop.

Allow me to copy and paste this prior exchange:

So God exists beyond the universe maybe.

Not meaning to be confusing here, but actually, no, God does not exist beyond the universe, at least not in the way that your statement implies.

What I said earlier is that the “alternate context of reality” in which God’s ultimate form is “perceivable,” exists beyond (outside of) the universe, not God.

With the above in mind, how would the eternal banging and crunching of the universe have any affect on that which exists “outside” of itself?

To approach this from a slightly different angle, I suggest that you are taking the contemporary meaning of the word “universe” (which, according to the Big Bang theory, appears to be a singular and closed, “bubble-like” phenomenon, beyond which nothing else exists)...



...and you are conflating it with the notion that it represents what some of us call the “ALL-THAT-IS,” which, in theory, could conceivably consist of an infinity of alternate universes, as is depicted below...



Indeed, that is precisely what I was suggesting in my prior post.

And the point is that you need to understand that just because our universe (which could be represented by the smaller bubble in the lower middle portion of the image) might be caught-up in your theory of an endless cycle of bangs and crunches, it doesn’t mean that the other universes would be affected.

So how, exactly, would “circular time” as it applies to our tiny little parochial circumstances, fit in with that scenario?

Now setting aside (via O’s Razor) the speculation of other universes existing outside of ours and just focusing on what we think we are observing, we are still confronted with the mystery regarding the source of the substance that composes this...



In other words, where did the “stuff” (in deference to poster uwot) that underpins the construction of the above phenomenon, initially come from?

If you say that it came from absolute nothingness, then that is a thoroughly untenable suggestion, for logic insists that you simply cannot derive somethingness from absolute nothingness.

On the other hand, if you take the modern physics route and say that the existence of the eternally “banging and crunching” phenomenon is the result of mysterious quantum processes hidden in a vacuum,...

...then you have to explain the origin of a vacuum that is capable of generating mysterious quantum processes, which then leads into the problem of infinite regress. And if you think that “circular time” is the answer to that particular problem of regress, then you just don’t understand the issue I am raising.

And lastly but definitely not leastly,...

...what you are proposing is a purely materialistic explanation of reality, and it does absolutely nothing to shed light on how the utterly chaotic circumstances of each Bang is transformed into the unthinkable level of order that is required to awaken us into existence.

The bottom line is that your insistence that “circular time” somehow resolves the “chicken and egg problem” does not hold up under deeper examination.
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