Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

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commonsense
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by commonsense »

TimeSeeker wrote: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:33 pm
commonsense wrote: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:21 pm This may be unusual, but you have convinced me, RG1, that my original position was wrong. This is not mere concession, but rather conversion.

To claim my perceptions are real is, indeed, without any rational basis. There is only non-rational basis to invoke: faith, truly blind faith.

If I prefer faith over reason, by blind belief I can depend on my perceptions. This kind of belief, the kind that comes with faith, has no rational basis.

I would also point out a flaw in my logic. I proposed that I can rely on my perceptions because there is nothing else to rely upon. However, even if there were nothing else to be relied upon, that does not mean that perceptions can be.

Furthermore, since the OP referenced trust, I find it difficult to count my perceptions as real. If I were standing before a firing squad, I would not trust that all the bullets would miss me. If there is a possibility, no matter how slight the probability, that my perceptions might betray me, I might have faith, but not trust, that my perceptions accurately represent reality.

RG1, every post you’ve submitted in this thread is true to reason. Anyone who says otherwise is blind.
You have just told a lie!

Do you trust your perception that if you stab your self with a knife in the heart you will die?

You said you have faith but not trust, so let’s gamble!

What probability would you assign to your perception being wrong? What is the likelyhoks of you surviving a knife to the heart?

1 in 1000?
1 in 1000000000?
1 in 100000000000000?

I will give you 1000000000000000 USD dollars AFTER you let me stab you in the heart!

No. Name your price to reflect your uncertainty...

Where does the reward outweigh the risk of perceptual error?
I'm an absolutist, not a liar. Anything less than 100.00% is for me incomplete.

I trust that after I perceive that you have plunged a knife into my heart, I will perceive that I will not survive. Unfortunately, that will be followed by the perception that I am bleeding and the perception that I am gradually losing consciousness. Whether the perceptions are fact or not makes no difference. Either I will die or I will perceive that I die.

I may be living in a world of my imagination or I may be living in a world of fact. In either instance, there are rules, consistent with fact or with perception. If fact and perception are congruous, it doesn't matter how I gamble. If there's incongruity, I'd be inclined not to trust perceptions.

I enjoy watching Penn & Teller. There are always incongruities between perception and fact when they perform. Perception can't be trusted here.
Atla
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Atla »

RG1 wrote: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:12 pm
RG1 wrote:Not so. Perceptions can never logically vouch for themselves. One perception cannot vouch for the realness of another perception. One dream cannot vouch for the realness of another dream. One hallucination cannot vouch for the realness of another hallucination.
Atla wrote:Of course they can, when they all always verifiably add up.
Atla, I think you miss the entire gist of this topic. There is nothing "verifiable" to add up. Everything is a perception. It is impossible to perceive 'beyond' your perceptions.

Again, imagine being in a dream and everything in your dream "adds up" and "verifies" that what you see in your dream is somehow 'real'. Everyone (in your dream) tells you that they are really, for sure, real, in fact, they all swear to it, and do a "pinkie promise" right there in front of you. Because it all "adds up", (and all the "pinkie promises') do you actually believe these perceptions are really real?

Again, perceptions can NEVER vouch for themselves.
You are the one missing the whole point. Yes this is how it all works, when everything adds up we assume it's all real, a highly accurate representation of real stuff. But we can never be absolutely certain about it.

A dream example doesn't work, because then you wake up and can verify that those people were just dreamt up, things don't add up anymore.
Last edited by Atla on Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
TimeSeeker
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by TimeSeeker »

RG1 wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:44 am
TimeSeeker wrote:What is the difference between a “certain” and an “uncertain” experience?
What is the difference between a “real” and “unreal” experience?
What is the difference between a “deniable” and an “undeniable” experience?
What is the difference between a “doubtable” and an “undoubtable” experience?
These are all "experiences" (perceptions).
Ok but are you certain that this phenomenon you are speaking of is, in fact an experience and not a perception?

Are you certain that experience and perception are the same phenomenon? Could they be different phenomena?
Maybe you are experiencing perception while I am perceiving experience?

Epistemically speaking. HOW do you KNOW if B the same as B ? They could be the same; or they could be different! You still haven't committed to an answer either way.

After all the processes that takes place in our brains for something ever so simple as counting isn't even the same as Feynman once discovered: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj4y0EUlU-Y&t=1s
RG1 wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:44 am
TimeKeeper wrote:If there is no difference between ANY of those distinctions then why do you need to qualify your experiences with the adjectives ‘certain’ or ‘real’ or ‘undeniable’ or ‘undoubtable’?
It is the "experiencing"-of-the-experience/perception that is certain/real/undeniable/undoubtable.

It is the 'experiencing'-of-X that is certain/real, not necessarily the 'X' itself.
It is the 'experiencing'-of-the-flying-pig that is certain/real, not necessarily the 'flying pig' itself.
And I ask again. Why are you qualifying this phenomenon (which you call 'experience', or 'perception' - not sure which one exactly) with words like 'certain', 'real', 'undeniable', 'undoubtable'.

If you claim that there is no difference between a deniable experience or perception and an undeniable experience or perception then you don’t need the adjectives, only the noun!
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:38 am, edited 11 times in total.
TimeSeeker
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by TimeSeeker »

commonsense wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:19 am I may be living in a world of my imagination or I may be living in a world of fact. In either instance, there are rules, consistent with fact or with perception. If fact and perception are congruous, it doesn't matter how I gamble. If there's incongruity, I'd be inclined not to trust perceptions.
And yet you have dodged my challenge to gamble!

Do you believe airplanes are absolutely safe?
Do you believe cars are absolutely safe?

The answer to both of those is “No”. And so every time you enter one of those vehicles there is a non-zero chance of you dying. And yet you do it! Clearly the risk of dying is worth the reward of getting from A to B faster!

Getting stabbed in the heart is not absolutely safe so it's exactly like airplanes and cars!
If you are willing to ignore the danger with cars and airplanes in exchange for a reward, then what reward will make you consider my proposal to stab you in the heart?

I am talking about your perception of safety, which you are perfectly willing to trade for utility! So lets trade - how much? ;)
commonsense wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:19 am I'm an absolutist, not a liar. Anything less than 100.00% is for me incomplete.
That is just a truism/tautology. Incompleteness is the nature of all human understanding! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6de ... s_theorems
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RG1
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by RG1 »

Atla wrote:You are the one missing the whole point. Yes this is how it all works, when everything adds up we assume it's all real, a highly accurate representation of real stuff.
On what basis do you "add up" and "assume" realness? Do you have something that is 'real' that you can use as a comparative reference point? How do you discern the real from the unreal? What is your criteria?

Atla wrote:A dream example doesn't work, because then you wake up and can verify that those people were just dreamt up, things don't add up anymore.
Yes, that is the point. You you can't "verify" what is real while you are "dreaming". ...and you can't verify what is real while you are "perceiving".

Dreams and perceptions are similar in that they both are just mental impressions (brain activity). We have no way of knowing if these mental impressions actually reflect 'real' stuff/objects/things out there.


TimeKeeper wrote:Ok but are you certain that this phenomenon you are speaking of is, in fact an experience and not a perception?
Yes. Perceptions are experiences. Everything we experience is an experience.

TimeSeeker wrote:Maybe you are experiencing perception while I am perceiving experience?
These say the same thing. Perceiving/experiencing are synonymous. Perceptions/experiences are synonymous.
  • Perceiving experiences
    Perceiving perceptions
    Experiencing experiences
    Experiencing perceptions
...all have equivalent meanings

TimeSeeker wrote:Epistemically speaking. HOW do you KNOW if B the same as B ? They could be the same; or they could be different! You still haven't committed to an answer either way.
I don't know. They could be the same, they could be different. Since I don't necessarily trust my perceptions, they could be the same, or they could be different. I still don't understand the point you are trying to make by comparing these perceptions. I've already said that I agree with you that perceptions are non-trustworthy.

TimeKeeper wrote:If there is no difference between ANY of those distinctions then why do you need to qualify your experiences with the adjectives ‘certain’ or ‘real’ or ‘undeniable’ or ‘undoubtable’?
I'm not qualifying the "experiences". I'm qualifying the "experiencing".
Last edited by RG1 on Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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henry quirk
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"I might have faith, but not trust, that my perceptions accurately represent reality"

Post by henry quirk »

I find that to be an odd construct and sentiment.

Here's why...

Humans are animals, with millions of years of evolution behind us. Our natural senses, for most of that time, were our only means of apprehending the world. Obviously, our senses are at least adequate cuz here we are, all 7 billion plus of us, living, working, playing, screwing, warring, etc., and we do all that interactin' mostly based on what we catch with our senses.

Simply: I don't think it's reasonable to doubt our senses (or, it's reasonable to trust our senses) cuz our senses serve us well (for the most part) as individuals and as a species.

For someone to say 'I don't trust my senses' based solely on an argument seems counter-intuitive cuz the evidence of living sez otherwise.

It's akin, to me, to those folks who claim 'there is no free will' when -- down in their bones -- their experience of living and self say otherwise.

Now, it very well may be perception is false, free will is an illusion, and I'm a figment of Timeseeker's imagination, but my experience of self, my living, my natural intuition, my 'gut' tell me otherwise.

I can, then, acknowledge the possibilities of false perceptions, illusory agency, my faux existence, but -- try as I might -- I can never accept them, never embrace them.

Practical experience leads me to 'trust' my senses and perceptions, to 'trust' I'm an agent and not robot, to 'trust' that my existence is independent of Timeseeker's imagination.

Thus endth my ramble.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by TimeSeeker »

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
RG1 wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:35 pm
  • Perceiving experiences
    Perceiving perceptions
    Experiencing experiences
    Experiencing perceptions
...all have equivalent meanings
How do you reconcile this statement ^^^^^

RG1 wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:35 pm I don't know. They could be the same, they could be different. Since I don't necessarily trust my perceptions, they could be the same, or they could be different.
With this statement ^^^^^

RG1 wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:35 pm I still don't understand the point you are trying to make by comparing these perceptions. I've already said that I agree with you that perceptions are non-trustworthy.
How do you KNOW (for certain!) whether you are experiencing OR perceiving?

If you CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE then they could be THE SAME. Or they could be DIFFERENT. How would you DETERMINE which is which?

Mathematically, empirically, and metaphysically this is EXACTLY THE SAME PROBLEM as: Is B the same as В?

Is experiencing the same as perceiving?
Is B the same as В?
RG1 wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:35 pm I'm not qualifying the "experiences". I'm qualifying the "experiencing".
Experiencing or perceiving ? :lol: :lol: :lol:

So the challenge STILL stands: Is B the same as В?

"I don't know" is NOT good enough. FIGURE IT OUT! I want a commitment from you. A firm "yes" or "no"!
Atla
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Atla »

RG1 wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:35 pm Yes, that is the point. You you can't "verify" what is real while you are "dreaming". ...and you can't verify what is real while you are "perceiving".

Dreams and perceptions are similar in that they both are just mental impressions (brain activity). We have no way of knowing if these mental impressions actually reflect 'real' stuff/objects/things out there.
That's some profound sounding nonsense. When we are dreaming we don't process our surroundings (normally); when we are awake and percieving, we do process it (normally).

Your "point" would only apply if we could discard time, and get stuck in a dream state, never realizing it's a dream. But time does apply, we do wake up eventually, and can tell the difference between the dream and the awake state, from the awake state. And there things will only add up when we see the dream as a dream.

Everything we experience in the awake state might be an illusion too, but so far everything adds up so why should we assume that it's an illusion?
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RG1
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by RG1 »

TimeSeeker wrote:RG1 wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:35 am
Perceiving experiences
Perceiving perceptions
Experiencing experiences
Experiencing perceptions
...all have equivalent meanings
How do you reconcile this statement ^^^^^

RG1 wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:35 am
I don't know. They could be the same, they could be different. Since I don't necessarily trust my perceptions, they could be the same, or they could be different.
With this statement ^^^^^
I don't. These statements refer to different questions.

TimeSeeker wrote:How do you KNOW (for certain!) whether you are experiencing OR perceiving?
Again, I use these terms SYNONYMOUSLY (i.e. interchangeably with each other). I typically use "perceiving" when it applies to "sensory experiencing", and use the word "experiencing" for all the other general experiences (thoughts, feelings/urges, etc.).

TimeSeeker, your question is no different than me asking you -- How do you know if you are "seeing" or "looking" or "viewing"? It is just a matter of personal preference.

TimeSeeker wrote:If you CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE then they could be THE SAME.
Yes, and I use them as the same.

TimeSeeker wrote:Or they could be DIFFERENT. How would you DETERMINE which is which?
If you are unclear of my meanings, then just ask me, and I will affirm that they mean the same; are interchangeable.

TimeSeeker wrote:So the challenge STILL stands: Is B the same as В? "I don't know" is NOT good enough. FIGURE IT OUT! I want a commitment from you. A firm "yes" or "no"!
Do you want me to lie? ...or do you want me to be truthful? How can I give a firm "yes/no" if I truly don't know?

But if you ask me nicely, then I would say "they both look the same to me". Whether they truly are the same, I have no idea, and therefore cannot "commit" to yes, or no. ...unless of course you prefer me to lie to you? ...and if so, then please tell me which answer will please you the most, (...and I will say the opposite! :) ...just kidding with you my friend!)
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by TimeSeeker »

RG1 wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:04 pm I don't. These statements refer to different questions.
Well it depends...

RG1 wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:04 pm Yes, and I use them as the same.
If you are unclear of my meanings, then just ask me, and I will affirm that they mean the same; are interchangeable.
I know you do. That's not the point.
RG1 wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:04 pm Do you want me to lie? ...or tell the truth?
I want you to TELL me what your perception/experience is TELLING YOU!

RG1 wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:04 pm they both look the same to me
Is that what in accordance with your perception/experience?

According to your perception/experience: Is B the same as В?
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RG1
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by RG1 »

Atla wrote:Your "point" would only apply if we could discard time, and get stuck in a dream state, never realizing it's a dream.
So how would you know that you are NOT stuck in a dream, ...or NOT hallucinating, ...or are NOT delusional, ...or NOT a brain-in-a-vat, etc, etc ???
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Atla »

RG1 wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:11 pm
Atla wrote:Your "point" would only apply if we could discard time, and get stuck in a dream state, never realizing it's a dream.
So how would you know that you are NOT stuck in a dream, ...or NOT hallucinating, ...or are NOT delusional, ...or NOT a brain-in-a-vat, etc, etc ???
I already mentioned several times, that obviously we can't ever be absolutely certain about anything. Even if everything adds up all the time, this all might still be a dream/hallucination/simulation/brain-in-a-vat/whatever, but there is just no way to tell.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by RG1 »

TimeSeeker wrote:According to your perception/experience: Is B the same as В?
If you really want a "yes" or "no", then I would lean towards "no". Although they look the same, I think technically they are different entities, therefore I would say NO.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by TimeSeeker »

RG1 wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:18 pm If you really want a "yes" or "no", then I would lean towards "no". Although they look the same, I think technically they are different entities, therefore I would say NO.
Cool. In what way are they different? Is their 'individuality' the only difference you experience/perceive? e.g their different position in spacetime ?

If you were to IGNORE their individuality in respect to spacetime would you say that: B is the same as В ?
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RG1
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by RG1 »

TimeSeeker wrote:Cool. In what way are they different? Is their 'individuality' the only difference you experience/perceive? e.g their different position in spacetime ?
Yes.

TimeSeeker wrote:If you were to IGNORE their individuality in respect to spacetime would you say that: B is the same as В ?
I would say "Yes".
Last edited by RG1 on Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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