The One Elemental Law

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Nick_A
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The One Elemental Law

Post by Nick_A »

https://parabola.org/2018/04/29/the-ete ... e-reality/
The most significant scientific progress occurs when we discover an underlying mathematical law that unites or supersedes previously discovered laws, explaining all that the previous laws explained and even more. If we follow this reasoning process, where underlying mathematical laws become more abstract, more unifying, and therefore simpler, we must logically arrive at one ultimately unifying, simple law, from which all others are derived. This ultimate mathematical law must be real, nonphysical, and un-changing, which is to say that it is eternal. This eternal law, in turn, requires further explanation, leading us through higher metaphysical notions, such as absolute beauty, all the way to ultimate reality, which is pure, absolute One.
—John Spencer
Could there be one elemental law from which all the laws of physics we’ve already learned and those we are yet to learn of have resulted from? If so, what does it mean?
The Eternal Law, which has won a handful of independent publishing awards in both science and spirituality, is also a rebuttal of both anti-realism in the sciences and New Age “create your own reality” belief systems, which deny the existence of any underlying objective cosmic order and claim that reality is subjective and random. In exposing these widely held beliefs as false, which he does through both logical exposition and scientific fact, Spencer also lays the groundwork for a seemingly new way of perceiving reality, which is really as ancient as it is universal.
Drawing a deep continuous line from Plato and other major figures in the Platonic school like Plotinus and Proclus, all the way to the pioneers of modern physics like Max Planck, Werner Heisenberg, and Albert Einstein, Spencer shows how important intuition is in scientific discovery, a mode of perception that allows us to access and understand otherwise hidden laws of nature. As Einstein said, “The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science.” The Eternal Law delves deep into this experience, shedding light on both the creative and scientific process and arguing that insight is a higher mode of thinking that taps into real and constant metaphysical laws and forms.
If true it means that this New Age idea of creating your own reality is misguided. Universal existence is the result of universal laws initiating from ONE. Creation didn’t arise by accident but from the involution of one elemental law into universal laws.

If true as I see it science rather than disproving a conscious source for our existence will eventually prove its necessity. Do you disagree?
RustyBert
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Re: The One Elemental Law

Post by RustyBert »

I think you're missing the point. Just from the exerpts you posted it seems like the author is talking about the scientific process, not the subject of that process. Einstein and others may have been extremely intuitive, and that led them to solutions to existing problems. But that doesn't really say anything about the true nature of what they were investigating. And Einstein I'm sure too would probably not like the metaphysical stuff and would argue that progress is painstaking and slow.

The other point is, just because it appears to us puny temporary mites that we're making our way towards a unified theory doesn't mean there is one. Who's to say it doesn't take two to tango so to speak? This is just an analogy, but if we were looking for the ultimate "law" explaining where humans came from, well we'd get it wrong if our answer wasn't, it takes a female and a male, i.e. two to make a baby. Just an analogy like I said, but hopefully you get my point. Who's to say there are two or more "things" at work to explain the ultimate reality.
Nick_A
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Re: The One Elemental Law

Post by Nick_A »

RustyBert wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:36 pm I think you're missing the point. Just from the exerpts you posted it seems like the author is talking about the scientific process, not the subject of that process. Einstein and others may have been extremely intuitive, and that led them to solutions to existing problems. But that doesn't really say anything about the true nature of what they were investigating. And Einstein I'm sure too would probably not like the metaphysical stuff and would argue that progress is painstaking and slow.

The other point is, just because it appears to us puny temporary mites that we're making our way towards a unified theory doesn't mean there is one. Who's to say it doesn't take two to tango so to speak? This is just an analogy, but if we were looking for the ultimate "law" explaining where humans came from, well we'd get it wrong if our answer wasn't, it takes a female and a male, i.e. two to make a baby. Just an analogy like I said, but hopefully you get my point. Who's to say there are two or more "things" at work to explain the ultimate reality.
Hi Rusty

I think you are underestimating Einstein's respect for metaphysics. He wrote:
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.

The scientists’ religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.

There is no logical way to the discovery of elemental laws. There is only the way of intuition, which is helped by a feeling for the order lying behind the appearance.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
Plato in the divided line analogy suggests the greater reality is above the at a level that our senses cannot receive.

Is there a reason why the first step for creation as ONE dividing into three must be denied?

The point I am making is that pondering the potential for one elemental law is the first step for providing an intuitive answer.
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bahman
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Re: The One Elemental Law

Post by bahman »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:33 pm https://parabola.org/2018/04/29/the-ete ... e-reality/
The most significant scientific progress occurs when we discover an underlying mathematical law that unites or supersedes previously discovered laws, explaining all that the previous laws explained and even more. If we follow this reasoning process, where underlying mathematical laws become more abstract, more unifying, and therefore simpler, we must logically arrive at one ultimately unifying, simple law, from which all others are derived. This ultimate mathematical law must be real, nonphysical, and un-changing, which is to say that it is eternal. This eternal law, in turn, requires further explanation, leading us through higher metaphysical notions, such as absolute beauty, all the way to ultimate reality, which is pure, absolute One.
—John Spencer
Could there be one elemental law from which all the laws of physics we’ve already learned and those we are yet to learn of have resulted from?
There could be.
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:33 pm If so, what does it mean?
Nothing especial. Matter just follow laws of nature.
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:33 pm
The Eternal Law, which has won a handful of independent publishing awards in both science and spirituality, is also a rebuttal of both anti-realism in the sciences and New Age “create your own reality” belief systems, which deny the existence of any underlying objective cosmic order and claim that reality is subjective and random. In exposing these widely held beliefs as false, which he does through both logical exposition and scientific fact, Spencer also lays the groundwork for a seemingly new way of perceiving reality, which is really as ancient as it is universal.
Drawing a deep continuous line from Plato and other major figures in the Platonic school like Plotinus and Proclus, all the way to the pioneers of modern physics like Max Planck, Werner Heisenberg, and Albert Einstein, Spencer shows how important intuition is in scientific discovery, a mode of perception that allows us to access and understand otherwise hidden laws of nature. As Einstein said, “The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science.” The Eternal Law delves deep into this experience, shedding light on both the creative and scientific process and arguing that insight is a higher mode of thinking that taps into real and constant metaphysical laws and forms.
If true it means that this New Age idea of creating your own reality is misguided. Universal existence is the result of universal laws initiating from ONE.
How do you conclude that there is ONE?
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:33 pm Creation didn’t arise by accident but from the involution of one elemental law into universal laws.
What is one elemental law?
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:33 pm If true as I see it science rather than disproving a conscious source for our existence will eventually prove its necessity. Do you disagree?
I don't think if science could prove God. That is the duty of philosophy. That is true since matter might be sustained by God or they could have essence and there could be no way to distinguish the truth through science by examining the reality. Science is only disproved when it is faced with paranormal phenomena.
Nick_A
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Re: The One Elemental Law

Post by Nick_A »

Bahman
I don't think if science could prove God. That is the duty of philosophy. That is true since matter might be sustained by God or they could have essence and there could be no way to distinguish the truth through science by examining the reality. Science is only disproved when it is faced with paranormal phenomena.
But suppose as the the laws of physics become better understood and indicate the probability of an elemental law, will it be more logical to deny it out of habit or begin to accept the probability of a conscious source, the ONE, from which this law initiates?
Walker
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Re: The One Elemental Law

Post by Walker »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:33 pm Could there be one elemental law from which all the laws of physics we’ve already learned and those we are yet to learn of have resulted from? If so, what does it mean?
Yes, there is a fundamental law.

The One Elemental Law is Order.

Order is evident everywhere.
Order is recognized, and creation of order is natural.

Man’s perception of order in the universe extends pretty far, given the clear view of telescopes beyond the distortion and dirt of earth’s atmosphere.

To establish order is also the impetus for human movement.

To maintain and assemble matter into order is the movement of the universe.

Without an input of energy for the movement of aligning into order, entropy winds down the universe. In theory this could be happening on an undetectable scale of time, but the persistence of ordering in the present negates that theory.

The conclusion is plain as day, since ordering is an expression of consciousness.
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bahman
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Re: The One Elemental Law

Post by bahman »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:56 am Bahman
I don't think if science could prove God. That is the duty of philosophy. That is true since matter might be sustained by God or they could have essence and there could be no way to distinguish the truth through science by examining the reality. Science is only disproved when it is faced with paranormal phenomena.
But suppose as the the laws of physics become better understood and indicate the probability of an elemental law, will it be more logical to deny it out of habit or begin to accept the probability of a conscious source, the ONE, from which this law initiates?
No. That could also mean that the law of physics is intrinsic property of matter.

As I said before, we can be sure about the one if only the laws of nature breaks due to paranormal phenomena.
Nick_A
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Re: The One Elemental Law

Post by Nick_A »

Walker wrote: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:16 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:33 pm Could there be one elemental law from which all the laws of physics we’ve already learned and those we are yet to learn of have resulted from? If so, what does it mean?
Yes, there is a fundamental law.

The One Elemental Law is Order.

Order is evident everywhere.
Order is recognized, and creation of order is natural.

Man’s perception of order in the universe extends pretty far, given the clear view of telescopes beyond the distortion and dirt of earth’s atmosphere.

To establish order is also the impetus for human movement.

To maintain and assemble matter into order is the movement of the universe.

Without an input of energy for the movement of aligning into order, entropy winds down the universe. In theory this could be happening on an undetectable scale of time, but the persistence of ordering in the present negates that theory.

The conclusion is plain as day, since ordering is an expression of consciousness.
You lost me here. I can see order being the result of laws but don't understand how order can be a law. Please explain.
Nick_A
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Re: The One Elemental Law

Post by Nick_A »

bahman wrote: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:20 pm
Nick_A wrote: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:56 am Bahman
I don't think if science could prove God. That is the duty of philosophy. That is true since matter might be sustained by God or they could have essence and there could be no way to distinguish the truth through science by examining the reality. Science is only disproved when it is faced with paranormal phenomena.
But suppose as the the laws of physics become better understood and indicate the probability of an elemental law, will it be more logical to deny it out of habit or begin to accept the probability of a conscious source, the ONE, from which this law initiates?
No. That could also mean that the law of physics is intrinsic property of matter.

As I said before, we can be sure about the one if only the laws of nature breaks due to paranormal phenomena.
If the laws of physics are intinsic to matter it must mean that atoms and molecules have sufficient intelligence to arrange themselves into what we see as the universe. Is this what you mean?
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bahman
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Re: The One Elemental Law

Post by bahman »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:39 am
Walker wrote: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:16 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:33 pm Could there be one elemental law from which all the laws of physics we’ve already learned and those we are yet to learn of have resulted from? If so, what does it mean?
Yes, there is a fundamental law.

The One Elemental Law is Order.

Order is evident everywhere.
Order is recognized, and creation of order is natural.

Man’s perception of order in the universe extends pretty far, given the clear view of telescopes beyond the distortion and dirt of earth’s atmosphere.

To establish order is also the impetus for human movement.

To maintain and assemble matter into order is the movement of the universe.

Without an input of energy for the movement of aligning into order, entropy winds down the universe. In theory this could be happening on an undetectable scale of time, but the persistence of ordering in the present negates that theory.

The conclusion is plain as day, since ordering is an expression of consciousness.
You lost me here. I can see order being the result of laws but don't understand how order can be a law. Please explain.
Order is obtained naturally by minimizing Helmholtz free energy, A=U-TS, where U is internal energy, T is temperature and S is entropy. U= K + V where K is kinetic energy and V is potential energy. U is in favor order if potential energy has a minimum. Entropy is against order for high temperature. System become order when temperature is low enough.
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bahman
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Re: The One Elemental Law

Post by bahman »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:44 am
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:20 pm
Nick_A wrote: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:56 am Bahman

But suppose as the the laws of physics become better understood and indicate the probability of an elemental law, will it be more logical to deny it out of habit or begin to accept the probability of a conscious source, the ONE, from which this law initiates?
No. That could also mean that the law of physics is intrinsic property of matter.

As I said before, we can be sure about the one if only the laws of nature breaks due to paranormal phenomena.
If the laws of physics are intinsic to matter it must mean that atoms and molecules have sufficient intelligence to arrange themselves into what we see as the universe. Is this what you mean?
There is no need for intelligence if we accept the fact that atoms moves and interact with each other systemically. Atoms always interact in similar way with each other so we cannot really assign an intelligence to this interaction. Atoms' motion also is based on simple law so there is no intelligence in their motion too.

I personally believe that atoms experience and act. I believe that they are conscious beings. There is however a problem in this world view, the unity of person. You don't expect that a bunch of intelligent atoms to become one person, you for example. There is one you in simple word, not as number as atoms which build you.
Walker
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Re: The One Elemental Law

Post by Walker »

bahman wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:07 am
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:39 am
Walker wrote: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:16 pm
Yes, there is a fundamental law.

The One Elemental Law is Order.

Order is evident everywhere.
Order is recognized, and creation of order is natural.

Man’s perception of order in the universe extends pretty far, given the clear view of telescopes beyond the distortion and dirt of earth’s atmosphere.

To establish order is also the impetus for human movement.

To maintain and assemble matter into order is the movement of the universe.

Without an input of energy for the movement of aligning into order, entropy winds down the universe. In theory this could be happening on an undetectable scale of time, but the persistence of ordering in the present negates that theory.

The conclusion is plain as day, since ordering is an expression of consciousness.
You lost me here. I can see order being the result of laws but don't understand how order can be a law. Please explain.
Order is obtained naturally by minimizing Helmholtz free energy, A=U-TS, where U is internal energy, T is temperature and S is entropy. U= K + V where K is kinetic energy and V is potential energy. U is in favor order if potential energy has a minimum. Entropy is against order for high temperature. System become order when temperature is low enough.
Lower temperature, less movement, higher entropy, order not excluded from higher temperatures.
Walker
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Re: The One Elemental Law

Post by Walker »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:39 am You lost me here. I can see order being the result of laws but don't understand how order can be a law. Please explain.
Order is the elemental thread that runs through the subatomic and the galactic. Order is ubiquitous, present in every situation, either known, or to be discovered. True laws such as order can't be broken. A demand for order is not because order has been broken, but rather, because another order is asserting. Order is the basis of life, of movement, of the body, of all structure in all realms. No law is more fundamental. Discovering order in disorder is an advantage of the human realm.
Nick_A
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Re: The One Elemental Law

Post by Nick_A »

Repeating the link in the OP

https://parabola.org/2018/04/29/the-ete ... e-reality/
…………………To this end Spencer critiques atheists like scientist Richard Dawkins, who calls “faith the great cop out” and argues that “Biology is the study of complicated things that have the appearance of having been designed with a purpose.” Dawkins’ bestseller The Selfish Gene goes to great lengths to try to establish that group altruism is unnatural and that survival of individual organisms and their individual genes is the only aim of life.
While this theory has been successfully challenged by biologists like E.O. Wilson, who has shown that among the most successful and organized species on earth, like ants and bees, selfless altruistic behavior is in fact the norm, Spencer travels to deeper metaphysical levels to discredit scientific atheism. Since the laws of physics are unchanging, universal, and nonmaterial, he argues, we all already believe in the existence of a metaphysical realm. The laws of physics are in turn, according to Spencer, the building blocks of higher metaphysical principles like symmetry, beauty, truth, justice, and—ultimately—absolute unity. In The Eternal Law, Spencer also considers the kind of New Age thought promoted by movies like The Secret and What the Bleep do We Know!?, where it is implied that our thoughts create reality and therefore we can do, and have, whatever we like if we just concentrate on it. While quantum physics does show that the observer is a part of any measurement and affects the outcome of any experiment, that does not mean that the observer is creating the situation, Spencer explains. Quite the opposite. What quantum physics has shown is that we are bound by these non-physical laws, which are in operation whether we are aware of them or not, whether we agree with them or not. Far from having the freedom to create reality, we are governed by the eternal law of unity and all of its manifestations. The only freedom we have is in acknowledging this, trying to understand the law as fully as possible, and attempting to live in harmony with it…………...
Bahman
There is no need for intelligence if we accept the fact that atoms moves and interact with each other systemically. Atoms always interact in similar way with each other so we cannot really assign an intelligence to this interaction. Atoms' motion also is based on simple law so there is no intelligence in their motion too.
Agreed. Creation is actually a machine reacting to laws. The question of the thread is if there is one elemental law that is the source of all the laws we know.

Walker
Order is the elemental thread that runs through the subatomic and the galactic. Order is ubiquitous, present in every situation, either known, or to be discovered. True laws such as order can't be broken. A demand for order is not because order has been broken, but rather, because another order is asserting. Order is the basis of life, of movement, of the body, of all structure in all realms. No law is more fundamental. Discovering order in disorder is an advantage of the human realm
.

The question becomes if the elemental law responsible for what you describe is an accident or the result of conscious intent? I maintain that universal laws much less the elemental law cannot arise by accident. If it can’t it just means the elemental law is the initial conscious expression. Of course this suggests the necessity for a conscious source of creation. Do you or Bahman disagree?
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bahman
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Re: The One Elemental Law

Post by bahman »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:46 am Agreed. Creation is actually a machine reacting to laws. The question of the thread is if there is one elemental law that is the source of all the laws we know.
To the best of our understanding, the standard model explains reality well. There are still problems in this model though. This model can be expressed in term of a single Lagrangian. You can see this on the cup picture in here.
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