Time cannot be created/emergent

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AlexW
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by AlexW »

bahman wrote: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:35 am Time cannot be an emergent property of a dynamical theory since you need time to have a dynamical theory at first place.
Well... yes... the mind says that you can't have a chicken without the egg and vice versa.
A theory emerges from other theories and one of them - maybe the theory of change - resulted in the emergence of the theory of time. Does it matter which theory came first? Only for the mind - in reality one thought is like the other - all appearing in the timeless now.
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bahman
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

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AlexW wrote: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:22 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:35 am Time cannot be an emergent property of a dynamical theory since you need time to have a dynamical theory at first place.
Well... yes... the mind says that you can't have a chicken without the egg and vice versa.
A theory emerges from other theories and one of them - maybe the theory of change - resulted in the emergence of the theory of time. Does it matter which theory came first?
Yes, it matters. The theory for emergence of time is fundamental therefore it should comes first. This theory however is dynamical since it is about emergence of time. Time however is needed for any dynamical theory. Therefore we are dealing with a contradiction.
AlexW wrote: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:22 am Only for the mind - in reality one thought is like the other - all appearing in the timeless now.
I agree that mind is timeless. I however cannot comprehend or imagine how mind can be embedded in a temporal framework. Could you please elaborate?
AlexW
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

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bahman wrote: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:52 am I agree that mind is timeless. I however cannot comprehend or imagine how mind can be embedded in a temporal framework. Could you please elaborate?
When I talk about mind I really mean thought - maybe what you mean with mind is the ancient Eastern usage of mind meaning awareness/consciousness. While mind/thought is always in time (past and future), awareness is always now (and as such not in time). Or to be more precise: Thought itself arises in/as awareness - now - but the stories that the conceptual structures convey are outside of the now. It is these stories, theories and ideas that make up what you believe you are as an individual, as a person that has a life and will somewhen die.

Awareness (what you seem to call mind) is never embedded in anything, not in a temporal framework or anything else. There is only awareness/now.
But: There is an illusion of temporality arising in timeless awareness. This illusion is based on the idea that something exists that is not NOW, something else than awareness. It is the wrong belief that we have built our lives as separate entities upon. To keep the illusion going one has to remain caught up in thought, once thought subsides the illusion breaks down and awareness, the now, reveals itself as it always was. Timeless, boundless, identity-less, open, accepting... you name it :-)
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bahman
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

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AlexW wrote: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:14 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:52 am I agree that mind is timeless. I however cannot comprehend or imagine how mind can be embedded in a temporal framework. Could you please elaborate?
When I talk about mind I really mean thought - maybe what you mean with mind is the ancient Eastern usage of mind meaning awareness/consciousness. While mind/thought is always in time (past and future), awareness is always now (and as such not in time). Or to be more precise: Thought itself arises in/as awareness - now - but the stories that the conceptual structures convey are outside of the now. It is these stories, theories and ideas that make up what you believe you are as an individual, as a person that has a life and will somewhen die.
By mind I mean the essence of a being with ability to experience, decides and act. Such a thing is spaceless and timeless.
AlexW wrote: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:14 am Awareness (what you seem to call mind) is never embedded in anything, not in a temporal framework or anything else. There is only awareness/now.
But: There is an illusion of temporality arising in timeless awareness. This illusion is based on the idea that something exists that is not NOW, something else than awareness. It is the wrong belief that we have built our lives as separate entities upon. To keep the illusion going one has to remain caught up in thought, once thought subsides the illusion breaks down and awareness, the now, reveals itself as it always was. Timeless, boundless, identity-less, open, accepting... you name it :-)
My question is how you could have an illusion of temporality in a timeless awareness? This seems contradictory to me considering the fact that you claim that awareness is timeless. The awareness in timeless framework should be timeless by definition.
AlexW
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by AlexW »

bahman wrote: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:01 pm By mind I mean the essence of a being with ability to experience, decides and act. Such a thing is spaceless and timeless.
Ok... I would call this "thing" awareness, even its not a thing.
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:01 pm My question is how you could have an illusion of temporality in a timeless awareness? This seems contradictory to me considering the fact that you claim that awareness is timeless. The awareness in timeless framework should be timeless by definition.
True! An so it is. The "awareness in timeless framework IS timeless" - it's only thoughts/memories that refer to a previous now that's not this now (past/future) that create the illusion of time.
Its pretty obvious that all that IS has to be now, right? You cannot be but now - you can only think/project yourself into the past or future, but You will not move - only thought creates the illusion of movement in time.
The past and the future do not exist - only now is. They only exist as thought referring to apparently previous nows.
Problem is that thought cannot even grasp this now, but it even claims to have knowledge of past nows... this is a wrong assumption. Thought always only knows interpretations of now that it diligently links up into chains of interpretations, as such creating a past (of interpretations) and with it the illusion of time. Time is as such a thought story, a chain of interpretations that is non existent otherwise.

Yes, there are thoughts stating that I was born some time ago, that I had a birthday party last year and that another one will be happening soon, but that's all story happening in thought. It has nothing to do with now - now is pure knowing, pure experiencing - it has nothing to do with the concepts and ideas that arise within the dimension of thought. This doesn't mean that we have to attempt to live a life condemning the concept of time, it can be quite practical, but we can understand that its ultimately not what defines us.
We, our true essence - pure awareness - is not touched by any concept, while we, the mind-made individual, are bound by all of the conceptual laws that we invent - simply because we have created a limited image of ourselves that is in a certain relation to the primary concepts of space/time/objects/movement that we have accepted as our reality...
In a way you could say that You are two beings - the primary is pure, timeless, awareness, the secondary, invented one, is the time-bound person... most people only know the personal side. A few have discovered their true nature as being pure awareness (which doesn't mean that the person will not have any more birthdays) :-)
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

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AlexW wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:55 am
bahman wrote: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:01 pm My question is how you could have an illusion of temporality in a timeless awareness? This seems contradictory to me considering the fact that you claim that awareness is timeless. The awareness in timeless framework should be timeless by definition.
True! An so it is. The "awareness in timeless framework IS timeless" - it's only thoughts/memories that refer to a previous now that's not this now (past/future) that create the illusion of time.
I am asking how we could have temporal experience in a timeless framework. To me that is contradictory even if it is an illusion. I think everything except minds, Qualia, is illusion.
AlexW wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:55 am Its pretty obvious that all that IS has to be now, right? You cannot be but now - you can only think/project yourself into the past or future, but You will not move - only thought creates the illusion of movement in time. The past and the future do not exist - only now is. They only exist as thought referring to apparently previous nows. Problem is that thought cannot even grasp this now, but it even claims to have knowledge of past nows... this is a wrong assumption. Thought always only knows interpretations of now that it diligently links up into chains of interpretations, as such creating a past (of interpretations) and with it the illusion of time. Time is as such a thought story, a chain of interpretations that is non existent otherwise.
Yes, there are thoughts stating that I was born some time ago, that I had a birthday party last year and that another one will be happening soon, but that's all story happening in thought. It has nothing to do with now - now is pure knowing, pure experiencing - it has nothing to do with the concepts and ideas that arise within the dimension of thought. This doesn't mean that we have to attempt to live a life condemning the concept of time, it can be quite practical, but we can understand that its ultimately not what defines us.
We, our true essence - pure awareness - is not touched by any concept, while we, the mind-made individual, are bound by all of the conceptual laws that we invent - simply because we have created a limited image of ourselves that is in a certain relation to the primary concepts of space/time/objects/movement that we have accepted as our reality...
In a way you could say that You are two beings - the primary is pure, timeless, awareness, the secondary, invented one, is the time-bound person... most people only know the personal side. A few have discovered their true nature as being pure awareness (which doesn't mean that the person will not have any more birthdays) :-)
I don't think if we are in timeless framework since we experience temporal phenomena like thought, memory, etc.
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by AlexW »

bahman wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:24 pm I am asking how we could have temporal experience in a timeless framework. To me that is contradictory even if it is an illusion.
You have never, ever had an experience of time.
Trying to construct a mental picture of what direct experience might be like is pretty useless - you have to LOOK at your direct experience using the tools that are made for it: seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling - and then there is thought about this experience... see if what thought states about the experience is really what is being experienced. What is directly experienced and what is just a belief/idea/story?
When you see, feel, think... do you ever experience time? Or is time always just an afterthought? If something is non-existent outside the thought-made belief that it exists, can it be real? If you never, ever, find a thing (e.g. time) in your direct experience, can it be more than just a story?
bahman wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:24 pm I don't think if we are in timeless framework since we experience temporal phenomena like thought, memory, etc.
You have to find out what makes them temporal. Is it the experience itself that is temporal or is it thought about the experience that adds the concept of time?
What tells you that one experience happened before the other? The direct experience itself cannot do that, right? Its always only thought that informs you of this "fact"... what would happen if thought would cease to tell you about before and after? You would exit (the idea of) time and enter now - this is actually where life happens! Not in ideas but in this direct experience - this moment, now, is where everything happens. Thoughts about experience are a sad distortion of reality - there is nothing alive in them. Life is always NOW, not in thought story.
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

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AlexW wrote: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:48 am
bahman wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:24 pm I am asking how we could have temporal experience in a timeless framework. To me that is contradictory even if it is an illusion.
You have never, ever had an experience of time.
Trying to construct a mental picture of what direct experience might be like is pretty useless - you have to LOOK at your direct experience using the tools that are made for it: seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling - and then there is thought about this experience... see if what thought states about the experience is really what is being experienced. What is directly experienced and what is just a belief/idea/story?
When you see, feel, think... do you ever experience time? Or is time always just an afterthought? If something is non-existent outside the thought-made belief that it exists, can it be real? If you never, ever, find a thing (e.g. time) in your direct experience, can it be more than just a story?
I can experience time when I focus on time and nothing else. I think that time is a part of Qualia and can be experienced separately when we focus on it. I have a argument in favor of time too. You can find it in here.
AlexW wrote: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:48 am
bahman wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:24 pm I don't think if we are in timeless framework since we experience temporal phenomena like thought, memory, etc.
You have to find out what makes them temporal. Is it the experience itself that is temporal or is it thought about the experience that adds the concept of time?
What tells you that one experience happened before the other? The direct experience itself cannot do that, right? Its always only thought that informs you of this "fact"... what would happen if thought would cease to tell you about before and after? You would exit (the idea of) time and enter now - this is actually where life happens! Not in ideas but in this direct experience - this moment, now, is where everything happens. Thoughts about experience are a sad distortion of reality - there is nothing alive in them. Life is always NOW, not in thought story.
I am afraid that I cannot imagine how a timeless thing, mind, can have temporal experience. I believe that is how things they are. Time is a part of Qualia and can be experienced separately while mind is timeless.
AlexW
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by AlexW »

bahman wrote: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:47 pm I can experience time when I focus on time and nothing else
Which one of the senses do you use when experiencing time?
Do you see it? Hear it? Taste it? Feel it? Or can you only think about it?
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

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AlexW wrote: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:32 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:47 pm I can experience time when I focus on time and nothing else
Which one of the senses do you use when experiencing time?
Do you see it? Hear it? Taste it? Feel it? Or can you only think about it?
It is like thought. There is no sense involved.
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

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bahman wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:17 pm It is like thought. There is no sense involved.
What do yo mean with "like" thought? If it's not sensual information then all that's left is thought, right?

But, yes, I think I know what you mean... it feels a bit different to "normal" thought...
Have a look what happens when you seem to "experience time". What happens when you count seconds quietly to yourself in your head?
21, 22, 23, 24... 29, 30... in the beginning there are simply individual number-thoughts, but after a few seconds it "feels like time passing"... right? Why?
If you look closely then you will spot in-between thoughts referring back to previous numbers (thoughts). When you start counting from 21 then somewhere, maybe already between 28 and 29, you will find lightning-fast thoughts stating "I started counting at 21, that was a few seconds ago... time is flowing fast... etc etc.." You might also observe certain physical sensations that arise together with these time-thoughts (short term memory thoughts) making the experience of time feel more real...
But what is really happening? There is simply one thought appearing now after another that appeared also... now (plus there might be a physical sensation in your abdomen etc appearing... also now).
Maybe you experience "time" in a slightly different way, but when you look closely you will always only find thought and more thought, but never time...
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by Justintruth »

bahman wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:46 pm Time is fundamental variable of any dynamical theory. This means that time cannot be an emergent property of a dynamical theory since otherwise it has to be emergent property and fundamental variable of the theory at the same time.
My understanding is that in our current dynamic theory, Einstein's relativity, time is not a fundamental variable. Rather time and space intervals can be exchanged in some sense in special relativity, a time interval having different values relative to differnt coordinate systems moving with respect to one another and a transformation a kind of rotation or projection of the space time interval.

The general theory is covariant which means that you can specify coordinates of the manifold anyway you want and the equations that constitute the theory hold. Its deliberately set up to be independent of coordinate systems. So you can make coordinates that are neither completely temporal nor completely spatial and measure along them and represent the physics without a purely temporal coordinate.

On the other hand Heiddeger has investigated being and time and showed a profound relationship of being to time unlike the one to space which is supperficial. But even there, the notion of existence in mathematics is an "eternal" one and not dependent on time. In a sense, although mathematics is not a dynamical theory, still it is a theory devoid of time.

I read a paper once that said that whether there was a first minute or an infinite succession of minutes in the past was a false dilema because the stability of Cesium could change, the homogeneity of time could be false and we could have a system slowly change from one in which time could be measured to one in which it could not. So, the notion of time in a dynamic system is based itself on the coherence and symetry between parts of the system.

What would happen if all of the cesium clocks no longer compared. And what would happen if all other processes that could be used were also falling apart.

What would happen....

.....*then*....

as you can see Heideggers point and the fact that dynamical systems are just a form of science and, well, "science does not think" as he said.
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by bahman »

AlexW wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:22 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:17 pm It is like thought. There is no sense involved.
What do yo mean with "like" thought? If it's not sensual information then all that's left is thought, right?
I mean it is not related to any sense.
AlexW wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:22 pm But, yes, I think I know what you mean... it feels a bit different to "normal" thought...
Have a look what happens when you seem to "experience time". What happens when you count seconds quietly to yourself in your head?
21, 22, 23, 24... 29, 30... in the beginning there are simply individual number-thoughts, but after a few seconds it "feels like time passing"... right? Why?
If you look closely then you will spot in-between thoughts referring back to previous numbers (thoughts). When you start counting from 21 then somewhere, maybe already between 28 and 29, you will find lightning-fast thoughts stating "I started counting at 21, that was a few seconds ago... time is flowing fast... etc etc.." You might also observe certain physical sensations that arise together with these time-thoughts (short term memory thoughts) making the experience of time feel more real...
But what is really happening? There is simply one thought appearing now after another that appeared also... now (plus there might be a physical sensation in your abdomen etc appearing... also now).
Maybe you experience "time" in a slightly different way, but when you look closely you will always only find thought and more thought, but never time...
Yes. Counting number helps. You could count fast or slow. You can observe different duration between each consecutive numbers though when you compare fast counting with slow counting. You eventually cannot count faster than specific speed since each thought has a duration.
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bahman
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Re: Time cannot be created/emergent

Post by bahman »

Justintruth wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:29 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:46 pm Time is fundamental variable of any dynamical theory. This means that time cannot be an emergent property of a dynamical theory since otherwise it has to be emergent property and fundamental variable of the theory at the same time.
My understanding is that in our current dynamic theory, Einstein's relativity, time is not a fundamental variable. Rather time and space intervals can be exchanged in some sense in special relativity, a time interval having different values relative to differnt coordinate systems moving with respect to one another and a transformation a kind of rotation or projection of the space time interval.

The general theory is covariant which means that you can specify coordinates of the manifold anyway you want and the equations that constitute the theory hold. Its deliberately set up to be independent of coordinate systems. So you can make coordinates that are neither completely temporal nor completely spatial and measure along them and represent the physics without a purely temporal coordinate.

On the other hand Heiddeger has investigated being and time and showed a profound relationship of being to time unlike the one to space which is supperficial. But even there, the notion of existence in mathematics is an "eternal" one and not dependent on time. In a sense, although mathematics is not a dynamical theory, still it is a theory devoid of time.

I read a paper once that said that whether there was a first minute or an infinite succession of minutes in the past was a false dilema because the stability of Cesium could change, the homogeneity of time could be false and we could have a system slowly change from one in which time could be measured to one in which it could not. So, the notion of time in a dynamic system is based itself on the coherence and symetry between parts of the system.

What would happen if all of the cesium clocks no longer compared. And what would happen if all other processes that could be used were also falling apart.

What would happen....

.....*then*....

as you can see Heideggers point and the fact that dynamical systems are just a form of science and, well, "science does not think" as he said.
By fundamental I mean, it is a variable which allows change. To the best of my knowledge there are theories that space is an emergent property within. What I am arguing is that there is no theory which time is an emergent property within since time cannot be the fundamental variable and emergent property at the same time. Why? Because you need time at first place to allow change. What is change? The emergence of time. We cannot have these two together.
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