Just Accidental , Blind Mindless Incident

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osgart
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Just Accidental , Blind Mindless Incident

Post by osgart » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:03 pm

Memory becomes,

From memory knowledge,

From knowledge awareness,

From awareness reason,

From reason understanding.

Through the brain comes experience , so that we may learn a part of reality.

My question is, how is this all a fluke and not carefully put together?

Not to mention, the existence of qualities of being, such as love, and commitment, etc.

Not to mention , that the body functions as an intention. Hands to grasp, feet to walk, eyes to see, ears to hear, etc.

How is this a blind mindless process that we exist?

The proof please
Last edited by osgart on Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

Impenitent
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Re: Just Accidental , Blind Mindless Incident

Post by Impenitent » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:46 pm

no one experienced the watchmaker

-Imp

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Just Accidental , Blind Mindless Incident

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:46 pm

You've just been programmed to 'think' in that way. There are others who have no problem with the 'astounding' idea that things can actually happen without humans causing them to happen.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Just Accidental , Blind Mindless Incident

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:21 pm

osgart wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:03 pm
Memory becomes,

From memory knowledge,

From knowledge awareness,

From awareness reason,

From reason understanding.

Through the brain comes experience , so that we may learn a part of reality.

My question is, how is this all a fluke and not carefully put together?

Not to mention, the existence of qualities of being, such as love, and commitment, etc.

Not to mention , that the body functions as an intention. Hands to grasp, feet to walk, eyes to see, ears to hear, etc.

How is this a mindless fluke that we exist?

And why shouldn't we consider intelligent agency in the creation of humans?
Odin was afraid of losing thought and memory...which of the two would you rather lose? Thought (reasoning) or Memory?

osgart
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Re: Just Accidental , Blind Mindless Incident

Post by osgart » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:13 pm

Losing memory is losing thought. If I cease to exist someday, I'll be afraid of neither. I would miss both.

I agree that there is no watchmaker present, but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist; it don't have to be human, just sentient. We could be an information program that takes input from the environment, and decides what kind of creature to form. The programmer could be very far away.

Perhaps life would be common if every environment was habitable.

It would be very astounding indeed that intelligence arises from mindless incident, as a fluke byproduct of nature's possibility. It would be humpty dumpty in reverse.

There is cause to seriously consider intelligent agency in evolution from my post. I don't think anyone can adequately dismiss the seemingly evident possibility. It's an induction with a high probability.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Just Accidental , Blind Mindless Incident

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:36 pm

osgart wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:13 pm
Losing memory is losing thought. If I cease to exist someday, I'll be afraid of neither. I would miss both.

I agree that there is no watchmaker present, but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist; it don't have to be human, just sentient. We could be an information program that takes input from the environment, and decides what kind of creature to form. The programmer could be very far away.

Perhaps life would be common if every environment was habitable.

It would be very astounding indeed that intelligence arises from mindless incident, as a fluke byproduct of nature's possibility. It would be humpty dumpty in reverse.

There is cause to seriously consider intelligent agency in evolution from my post. I don't think anyone can adequately dismiss the seemingly evident possibility. It's an induction with a high probability.
From another perspective, knowledge, as something we perceived, is strictly the application of dimensions (whether proactively or reactively). Could thought come before memory?

osgart
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Re: Just Accidental , Blind Mindless Incident

Post by osgart » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:05 pm

Thought would be paralyzed and thoughtless without memory capacity. The two are synchronized. The capacity for thought might exist prior to memory, but without memory you are completely thoughtless.

:roll:

Why memories take on form and content may in fact be other dimensional. Or cells and atoms hold memory content. But memory is over time, without time there is no knowable experience, and nothing to remember.

How does memory and the ability to interpret memories in the ever-changing now translate to cells, molecules, and atoms. For me you must invoke another dimension. :mrgreen:

Impenitent
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Re: Just Accidental , Blind Mindless Incident

Post by Impenitent » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:16 pm

osgart wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:13 pm
Losing memory is losing thought. If I cease to exist someday, I'll be afraid of neither. I would miss both.

I agree that there is no watchmaker present, but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist; it don't have to be human, just sentient. We could be an information program that takes input from the environment, and decides what kind of creature to form. The programmer could be very far away.

Perhaps life would be common if every environment was habitable.

It would be very astounding indeed that intelligence arises from mindless incident, as a fluke byproduct of nature's possibility. It would be humpty dumpty in reverse.

There is cause to seriously consider intelligent agency in evolution from my post. I don't think anyone can adequately dismiss the seemingly evident possibility. It's an induction with a high probability.
yet as flawed and uncertain as every other induction

-Imp

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Greta
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Re: Just Accidental , Blind Mindless Incident

Post by Greta » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:14 am

osgart wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:03 pm
Memory becomes,

From memory knowledge,

From knowledge awareness,

From awareness reason,

From reason understanding.

Through the brain comes experience , so that we may learn a part of reality.

My question is, how is this all a fluke and not carefully put together?
I was enjoying your flow of thought until the last leap. It's may well not be a fluke. Everything appears to be part of a living system to some extent - so many things that have a beginning, a hyperactive infancy and youth, then a continued development to a long period of stability/maturity before decline and a return to its environment. The pattern repeats everywhere.

If you see the cosmos as living systems (obviously usually not biological ones :) rather than Newtownian "billiard balls", it all makes a little more sense. Suddenly we are not a miraculous emergence of from dead rocks but an extension of active, living (in their own way) geology and chemistry. Some experts see life as probably inevitable - this is a heavy talk at times but if you can stay interested it is brilliant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElMqwgkXguw.

No doubt reality is more interesting than we can imagine - but improving human knowledge to reach today's understandings has taken thousands of years so we, like those before us, are destined to either accept that we don't know, pretend that we do, or behave like thinkers and brainstorm :)

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Lacewing
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Re: Just Accidental , Blind Mindless Incident

Post by Lacewing » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:31 am

Greta wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:14 am
Suddenly we are not a miraculous emergence of from dead rocks but an extension of active, living (in their own way) geology and chemistry.
It really is fantastically beautiful to consider! And (to me) it points to unfathomable connectivity, resulting in endless potential, which even we human creatures can interactively access and process if we don't confine ourselves to stories. I'm guessing that it doesn't matter on the cosmic level, what we do or don't do -- the Universe doesn't need us to be one way or another (everything will keep moving) -- and vast possibilities are naturally available to us.

Atla
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Re: Just Accidental , Blind Mindless Incident

Post by Atla » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:25 am

Our universe is sort of "fine-tuned" for human life, that's how we are here. But this kind of fine tuning is so utterly-mindblowingly-incomprehensibly-unfathomably improbable, that in my opinion we are pretty much left with two beliefs:

1: God did it
2: Reality is infinitely multiversal

1: requires the supernatural though, and to explain where God came from can lead to even more improbability.

2: well yeah.. this too may be a totally unprovable belief. However within this belief, we are not flukes, no blind mindless incidents. What a horrible putdown it sound like now. Instead, in an infinitely multiversal world, the probability of us existing is 100%, we must absolutely necessarily be here.

osgart
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Re: Just Accidental , Blind Mindless Incident

Post by osgart » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:02 am

You would have to consider the landscape of possibilities in our universe alone. Not what happened, but what could have been. I dont think we are near that kind of explanation about fine tuning.


God is an undefineable entity. It could mean anything. I prefer the vitalist explanation that way.

Safe to say , whatever it truly is, it is absurd.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Just Accidental , Blind Mindless Incident

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:11 pm

God-bothering garbage thread. Intelligence evolved. Time=change. Beginning with intelligence makes no logical sense. You might as well say single-celled life forms evolved from whales. You are absurd. Man made God in his own image, therefore man made himself. How arrogant and conceited (and deluded) can you be?

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Greta
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Re: Just Accidental , Blind Mindless Incident

Post by Greta » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:49 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:31 am
Greta wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:14 am
Suddenly we are not a miraculous emergence of from dead rocks but an extension of active, living (in their own way) geology and chemistry.
It really is fantastically beautiful to consider! And (to me) it points to unfathomable connectivity, resulting in endless potential ...
Another of my favourite clips - a TED talk about Martin Hanczyc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dySwrhMQdX4, that explores the blurred line between biological life and nonliving chemicals.

Science Fan
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Re: Just Accidental , Blind Mindless Incident

Post by Science Fan » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:52 pm

Osgart: You are asking a question about evolution, which has been answered numerous times in science textbooks, and scientists who have spoken out on the topic, and you can easily find many such videos on places like YouTube. Basically, you are not realizing that evolution is both random, and non-random. The mutations that arise in our genes are random occurrences, and if that were the sole mechanism of evolution, then you would have a point --- how could structurally complex biological organisms arise solely through random occurrences? It's doubtful they would, which is explained by the second part of evolution you overlooked --- the selection of mutations is anything but random. The non-random selection process is what is responsible for the seemingly intelligently designed organisms you see around you.

By the way, intelligence has numerous cognitive biases, which are completely inconsistent with us having been intelligently designed. However, these biases are perfectly consistent with our ability to reason having evolved. In fact, if you think about it, the ability to reason involves the ability to draw inferences. Even single-cell organisms can draw inferences regarding their environment, so you can see how quickly evolution would have been at work selecting for better and better forms of intelligence.

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