Is There Eternal Necessary Being Or Is The Cosmos Pure Chance?L

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Enigma3
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Is There Eternal Necessary Being Or Is The Cosmos Pure Chance?L

Post by Enigma3 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:58 pm

Is the cosmos the result of a one time chance or are there eternally existing entities (usually God)?

Time

Let's assume that Cosmic reality does have a beginning in time. Then, in that case, there must have been a preceding time in which no reality existed i.e. an empty time. Now, no coming to be of a thing is possible in an empty time, because no part of such a time possesses, as compared with any other, a distinguishing condition of existence rather than of non-existence.

Nothing can ever come from nothingness. Within the world many different series of things can be said to begin, but these alterations can't be fundamental; the world of reality therefore is eternal.

Space

Let's assume the world is finite and limited in regards to space and consequently exists in an empty space which is unlimited. Things will therefore not only be related in space but also related to space. Now since the world is an absolute whole beyond which there is no object of perception, and therefore no correlate with which the world stands in relation, the relation of the world to empty space would be a relation of it to no object. But such a relation, and consequently the limitation of the world by empty space, is nothing. Bodies can't be separated from perceptions (space is merely the form of outer intuition). The world cannot, therefore, be limited in space; that is, it is infinite with respect to extension.

Individuals would stand to infinite space the way a single element would stand in relation to its ideal form; space is the possibility of intuitive outer appearances.

Therefore there is eternal and necessary being.





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Atla
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Re: Is There Eternal Necessary Being Or Is The Cosmos Pure Chance?L

Post by Atla » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:00 pm

Imo eternality and infinity are of course necessary, chance and God beings aren't.

Our universe might not necessarily be infinite though, it's dimensions might be circular (in a higher dimension, so we would not be able to detect this curviture) so if you go in one direction in spacetime long enough, without changing course, you might end up where you started.

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Greta
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Re: Is There Eternal Necessary Being Or Is The Cosmos Pure Chance?L

Post by Greta » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Enigma3 wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:58 pm
Is the cosmos the result of a one time chance or are there eternally existing entities (usually God)?
That's two options, let's keep going:

Is the universe the first?

Is the universe the only one?

Is there an internal necessary being?

Does the universe actually exist or is it the product of minds?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Is There Eternal Necessary Being Or Is The Cosmos Pure Chance?L

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:47 pm

Atla wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:00 pm
Imo eternality and infinity are of course necessary, chance and God beings aren't.

Our universe might not necessarily be infinite though, it's dimensions might be circular (in a higher dimension, so we would not be able to detect this curviture) so if you go in one direction in spacetime long enough, without changing course, you might end up where you started.
And what separates the circle from infinity, considering this circular nature makes the beginning cause ever-present, as it circles upon itself without end?

Nick_A
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Re: Is There Eternal Necessary Being Or Is The Cosmos Pure Chance?L

Post by Nick_A » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:05 am

Enigma3 wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:58 pm
Is the cosmos the result of a one time chance or are there eternally existing entities (usually God)?

Time

Let's assume that Cosmic reality does have a beginning in time. Then, in that case, there must have been a preceding time in which no reality existed i.e. an empty time. Now, no coming to be of a thing is possible in an empty time, because no part of such a time possesses, as compared with any other, a distinguishing condition of existence rather than of non-existence.

Nothing can ever come from nothingness. Within the world many different series of things can be said to begin, but these alterations can't be fundamental; the world of reality therefore is eternal.

Space

Let's assume the world is finite and limited in regards to space and consequently exists in an empty space which is unlimited. Things will therefore not only be related in space but also related to space. Now since the world is an absolute whole beyond which there is no object of perception, and therefore no correlate with which the world stands in relation, the relation of the world to empty space would be a relation of it to no object. But such a relation, and consequently the limitation of the world by empty space, is nothing. Bodies can't be separated from perceptions (space is merely the form of outer intuition). The world cannot, therefore, be limited in space; that is, it is infinite with respect to extension.

Individuals would stand to infinite space the way a single element would stand in relation to its ideal form; space is the possibility of intuitive outer appearances.

Therefore there is eternal and necessary being.


I would agree that there is eternal and necessary being. I like the idea of the initial unit of time defined as a kalpa in Buddhism
Time in Buddhist cosmology is measured in kalpas. Originally, a kalpa was considered to be 4,320,000 years. Buddhist scholars expanded it with a metaphor: rub a one-mile cube of rock once every hundred years with a piece of silk, until the rock is worn away -- and a kalpa still hasn’t passed! During a kalpa, the world comes into being, exists, is destroyed, and a period of emptiness ensues. Then it all starts again.
As I understand it, the process of creation takes place within NOW. Since NOW is not bounded by time and space the process of creation must take place within it. NOW provides the necessary impulse to create fractions of the whole existing within NOW as potential.

Atla
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Re: Is There Eternal Necessary Being Or Is The Cosmos Pure Chance?L

Post by Atla » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:07 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:47 pm
And what separates the circle from infinity, considering this circular nature makes the beginning cause ever-present, as it circles upon itself without end?
Our universe may be circular, but outside this universe everything else may exist too. An infinity of other universes and non-universe-configurations. Maybe one could argue that these aren't necessary and only this universe/some universes exist, but why would reality have such limits. It's either nothing or infinity.

Ultimately, reality is also beyond existence and nonexistence, but this is in my opinion the hardest concept to grasp.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Is There Eternal Necessary Being Or Is The Cosmos Pure Chance?L

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:08 pm

Atla wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:07 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:47 pm
And what separates the circle from infinity, considering this circular nature makes the beginning cause ever-present, as it circles upon itself without end?
Our universe may be circular, but outside this universe everything else may exist too. An infinity of other universes and non-universe-configurations. Maybe one could argue that these aren't necessary and only this universe/some universes exist, but why would reality have such limits. It's either nothing or infinity.

Ultimately, reality is also beyond existence and nonexistence, but this is in my opinion the hardest concept to grasp.
Is this circular too?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Is There Eternal Necessary Being Or Is The Cosmos Pure Chance?L

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:22 pm

Enigma3 wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:58 pm
Is the cosmos the result of a one time chance or are there eternally existing entities (usually God)?

Time

Let's assume that Cosmic reality does have a beginning in time. Then, in that case, there must have been a preceding time in which no reality existed i.e. an empty time. Now, no coming to be of a thing is possible in an empty time, because no part of such a time possesses, as compared with any other, a distinguishing condition of existence rather than of non-existence.

Nothing can ever come from nothingness. Within the world many different series of things can be said to begin, but these alterations can't be fundamental; the world of reality therefore is eternal.

Space

Let's assume the world is finite and limited in regards to space and consequently exists in an empty space which is unlimited. Things will therefore not only be related in space but also related to space. Now since the world is an absolute whole beyond which there is no object of perception, and therefore no correlate with which the world stands in relation, the relation of the world to empty space would be a relation of it to no object. But such a relation, and consequently the limitation of the world by empty space, is nothing. Bodies can't be separated from perceptions (space is merely the form of outer intuition). The world cannot, therefore, be limited in space; that is, it is infinite with respect to extension.

Individuals would stand to infinite space the way a single element would stand in relation to its ideal form; space is the possibility of intuitive outer appearances.

Therefore there is eternal and necessary being.





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Necessity is not always required for existence:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=23399

Atla
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Re: Is There Eternal Necessary Being Or Is The Cosmos Pure Chance?L

Post by Atla » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:49 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:08 pm
Atla wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:07 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:47 pm
And what separates the circle from infinity, considering this circular nature makes the beginning cause ever-present, as it circles upon itself without end?
Our universe may be circular, but outside this universe everything else may exist too. An infinity of other universes and non-universe-configurations. Maybe one could argue that these aren't necessary and only this universe/some universes exist, but why would reality have such limits. It's either nothing or infinity.

Ultimately, reality is also beyond existence and nonexistence, but this is in my opinion the hardest concept to grasp.
Is this circular too?
Could nonexistence also be circular in a way, in our "universe"?
That's the question where imo deep philosophy begins, the rest is just stamp collecting.

Londoner
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Re: Is There Eternal Necessary Being Or Is The Cosmos Pure Chance?L

Post by Londoner » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:54 pm

Enigma3 wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:58 pm
Is the cosmos the result of a one time chance or are there eternally existing entities (usually God)?

Time

Let's assume that Cosmic reality does have a beginning in time. Then, in that case, there must have been a preceding time in which no reality existed i.e. an empty time. Now, no coming to be of a thing is possible in an empty time,...
I do not think time is some sort of location, such that things exist in it. Nor is it some sort of container, which is full or empty.

(But if we did think that, then we would already have an 'eternally existing entity'. There is no need for the rest of the argument.)

I understand 'time' as a measurement. So, when you write 'no coming to be of a thing is possible in an empty time' the situation is rather that without things to measure there can be no time. One could say the same about other forms of measurement, like length. If there is no object with extension to measure, then we don't imagine units of measurement like 'metres' still existing, independently but 'empty' of objects. In other words, to talk of 'time in which no reality existed' is like writing of 'the length of nothing'.

I think we have a lot of difficulty thinking about, or finding words for, a situation where there really is no observer i.e. no situation at all. It is like asking 'what is death like?'. To which the true answer is 'It isn't like anything, because it isn't anything'. So, because this is literally inconceivable, we tell ourselves that some things we experience when alive, like the passage of 'time', must still be going on, even if we personally are not conscious of them. Likewise, we cannot imagine the utter 'nothing' of 'no reality'. So I would say that the eternal God constructed from arguments like the OP is persuasive because we cannot quite believe in the completeness of our own personal extinction.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Is There Eternal Necessary Being Or Is The Cosmos Pure Chance?L

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:48 pm

Atla wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:49 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:08 pm
Atla wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:07 am


Our universe may be circular, but outside this universe everything else may exist too. An infinity of other universes and non-universe-configurations. Maybe one could argue that these aren't necessary and only this universe/some universes exist, but why would reality have such limits. It's either nothing or infinity.

Ultimately, reality is also beyond existence and nonexistence, but this is in my opinion the hardest concept to grasp.
Is this circular too?
Could nonexistence also be circular in a way, in our "universe"?
That's the question where imo deep philosophy begins, the rest is just stamp collecting.
True.

osgart
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Re: Is There Eternal Necessary Being Or Is The Cosmos Pure Chance?L

Post by osgart » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:25 am

It would very easily be chance, if intelligent beings didn't exist, and everything was happening about mindlessly. But the mere existence of intelligence and order suggests eternal mind.

Perhaps the number of variables and constants in the universe is so large in quantities of properties that eventually complexity must narrow down into simplicity, and from simplicity comes order, and from order appears logic, and from logic appears intelligence. Sooner or later complexity must break down into simplicity.

Yet a logical purposed body with specific highly functional and discrete parts cries out for some sort of creator intelligence. Created and, not by design , by a higher intelligence. Intelligence, and love, and will could be of another dimension to reality.

How can the purely physical complexities of nature take on logical structure and purpose. Logical purpose in my definition means ' for the purposes of something'. Isn't logic a tool of purpose! Purpose being of intellect. The mere existence of math, and logical purpose presupposes a nature of intellect. Logical purpose would be nothing consequential without intelligent life.

Nothing in a mindless universe has to happen purposefully or logically. Total senselessness may reign supreme. Yet we are life, and life is bound to the traps and limits of physical existence. Physical existence appears mindless enough. So what breathed the fire of logical , purposeful intelligent life into a mindless existence?

One might imagine higher realities. It appears the quantum world doesn't operate on intuition. So intuitions of physicalism being all there is could turn out to be false. If there are higher realities, we could be one of endless many universe's that are farmed by a superintelligence that may exist outside of the norms of our universe.

So my conclusion is a superintelligence completely alien to human intelligence cultivated life. To create life the superintelligence is intrinsic to the knowledge of existence. Humans are somehow woven into the fabric of existence, yet our understandings and knowledge is extrinsic to the nature of existence.

Otherwise pure physics and total chaos broke down into order, and simplicity, and we emerged from patterns and structures. But that leaves a gap, a hole in complete logic. Vitalism is the only thing that can fill that gap. The gap is life and soul non physical. A soul is a life force of heart ( the ability to care), mind, and will. The synergy of these three components of the soul, is what we experience subjectively. I find it impossible to reconcile the subjective experience of soul with purely physical means.

I assert that the vital world, and the physical reality are intimately interwoven. And our non physical reality is bound by the limits of physics, and completely constricted by the physical. Non physical, being else existing than the physical.

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