Qualia and Differentiation

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Viveka
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Qualia and Differentiation

Post by Viveka » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:34 am

Is the red we observe in an object(s) ever the same red? Even in atomic spectroscopy, is it ever the same red? Even if we see a 'spectral line' of color in atomic spectroscopy, is it ever the exact same position and intensity? If so, then that means that there are truly quantum states. If not, then there is never the same red, and we are stuck with qualia being individual in their constituency, always.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Qualia and Differentiation

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:16 am

Viveka wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:34 am
Is the red we observe in an object(s) ever the same red? Even in atomic spectroscopy, is it ever the same red? Even if we see a 'spectral line' of color in atomic spectroscopy, is it ever the exact same position and intensity? If so, then that means that there are truly quantum states. If not, then there is never the same red, and we are stuck with qualia being individual in their constituency, always.
Interesting questions, In theory there are infinite reds as red is merely a probabilistic perpetual movement. Red as a form is merely the summation of all probable movements as 100%. In these respects red is both unity and unit.

Position and intensity is relative to measuring point. If I measure a beach with x measuring stick and then change to y measuring stick of a different length the beach increased in dimensionality. What seperates the size of one line from another is the number of times is seperated through a 0d point.

This 0d point, as an individuator that exists through the line as relation, is an ever present median of "absence" that causes perpetual relation of lines as movements. It is the relation of lines which form measurements as ratios.

Using the same example of Red as merely being a grade of "white" or "black", we can observe it is strictly individuation as dimension. Red, as quality, is strictly an individuation of another quality. Individuation is seperation through multiplicity. Multiplicity implies movement.

Viveka
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Re: Qualia and Differentiation

Post by Viveka » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:25 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:16 am
Viveka wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:34 am
Is the red we observe in an object(s) ever the same red? Even in atomic spectroscopy, is it ever the same red? Even if we see a 'spectral line' of color in atomic spectroscopy, is it ever the exact same position and intensity? If so, then that means that there are truly quantum states. If not, then there is never the same red, and we are stuck with qualia being individual in their constituency, always.
Interesting questions, In theory there are infinite reds as red is merely a probabilistic perpetual movement. Red as a form is merely the summation of all probable movements as 100%. In these respects red is both unity and unit.

Position and intensity is relative to measuring point. If I measure a beach with x measuring stick and then change to y measuring stick of a different length the beach increased in dimensionality. What seperates the size of one line from another is the number of times is seperated through a 0d point.

This 0d point, as an individuator that exists through the line as relation, is an ever present median of "absence" that causes perpetual relation of lines as movements. It is the relation of lines which form measurements as ratios.

Using the same example of Red as merely being a grade of "white" or "black", we can observe it is strictly individuation as dimension. Red, as quality, is strictly an individuation of another quality. Individuation is seperation through multiplicity. Multiplicity implies movement.
No offense, but I think you misunderstand what i mean by 'spectral lines.' The red of a spectral line is a diffusion of light through a 'prism' until it is separated into its constituent colors. This 'line' is the signature of a certain atom's energy levels as it expends a photon to give the color of what it reflects, which in all appearances is what color the object appears to us to be, even in ultraviolet to infrared. What I want to know is: if this 'spectral line' can be quantized in the sense of it always being the same frequency (or frequencies) or if it is ever exactly the same? Frequency can be given a number, but can the true color be given a number? Can we truly 'quantize' colors?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Qualia and Differentiation

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:43 am

Viveka wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:25 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:16 am
Viveka wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:34 am
Is the red we observe in an object(s) ever the same red? Even in atomic spectroscopy, is it ever the same red? Even if we see a 'spectral line' of color in atomic spectroscopy, is it ever the exact same position and intensity? If so, then that means that there are truly quantum states. If not, then there is never the same red, and we are stuck with qualia being individual in their constituency, always.
Interesting questions, In theory there are infinite reds as red is merely a probabilistic perpetual movement. Red as a form is merely the summation of all probable movements as 100%. In these respects red is both unity and unit.

Position and intensity is relative to measuring point. If I measure a beach with x measuring stick and then change to y measuring stick of a different length the beach increased in dimensionality. What seperates the size of one line from another is the number of times is seperated through a 0d point.

This 0d point, as an individuator that exists through the line as relation, is an ever present median of "absence" that causes perpetual relation of lines as movements. It is the relation of lines which form measurements as ratios.

Using the same example of Red as merely being a grade of "white" or "black", we can observe it is strictly individuation as dimension. Red, as quality, is strictly an individuation of another quality. Individuation is seperation through multiplicity. Multiplicity implies movement.
No offense, but I think you misunderstand what i mean by 'spectral lines.'
None taken.

The red of a spectral line is a diffusion of light through a 'prism' until it is separated into its constituent colors. This 'line' is the signature of a certain atom's energy levels as it expends a photon to give the color of what it reflects, which in all appearances is what color the object appears to us to be, even in ultraviolet to infrared. What I want to know is: if this 'spectral line' can be quantized in the sense of it always being the same frequency (or frequencies) or if it is ever exactly the same?
A spectral line is still a dimension in itself, and its relation to other spectral lines forms further ones. A line is merely a dimension of space, nothing more. In these respect what we observe of qualia as direction, is merely quantity as "unit".
Frequency can be given a number, but can the true color be given a number?
The number of wavelengths within a given dimension of space, in theory, would be one logical answer. This number relative to the origin of the colors wavelengths (the number of wavelength in white light within a give dimension of space) would provide a ratio as "quality". The number of wavelengths, within red, as a fraction of white as potential unity is one possibility: Wx/Ry
Can we truly 'quantize' colors?

Viveka
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Re: Qualia and Differentiation

Post by Viveka » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:28 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:43 am
A spectral line is still a dimension in itself, and its relation to other spectral lines forms further ones. A line is merely a dimension of space, nothing more. In these respect what we observe of qualia as direction, is merely quantity as "unit".
You're confusing the idea of a line with a spectral 'line'. It is only a line because we divide its frequencies into appearances that are observable as lines. It's not like a mathematical line at all, and colors do not spawn further colors unless there are colors within colors, and although I am not sure, I believe this is seen in hyperfine structure, the Stark effect, and the Zeeman effect.
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:43 am
The number of wavelengths within a given dimension of space, in theory, would be one logical answer. This number relative to the origin of the colors wavelengths (the number of wavelength in white light within a give dimension of space) would provide a ratio as "quality". The number of wavelengths, within red, as a fraction of white as potential unity is one possibility: Wx/Ry
I don't know about your mathematical fraction, but nonetheless I agree. The wavelength or frequency is what determines the color. Therefore, these are qualitative as well as quantitative.
Last edited by Viveka on Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

Impenitent
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Re: Qualia and Differentiation

Post by Impenitent » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:52 pm

Viveka wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:34 am
Is the red we observe in an object(s) ever the same red? Even in atomic spectroscopy, is it ever the same red? Even if we see a 'spectral line' of color in atomic spectroscopy, is it ever the exact same position and intensity? If so, then that means that there are truly quantum states. If not, then there is never the same red, and we are stuck with qualia being individual in their constituency, always.
exactly same position and density? even if measurable, I'd say no (never the same measured space/time dimension)

-Imp

Viveka
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Re: Qualia and Differentiation

Post by Viveka » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:00 am

Here's something interesting from wikipedia that supports the individuality of colors in the sense of spectral lines having no discrete quantized states:

Line broadening and shift
A spectral line extends over a range of frequencies, not a single frequency (i.e., it has a nonzero linewidth). In addition, its center may be shifted from its nominal central wavelength. There are several reasons for this broadening and shift. These reasons may be divided into two general categories – broadening due to local conditions and broadening due to extended conditions. Broadening due to local conditions is due to effects which hold in a small region around the emitting element, usually small enough to assure local thermodynamic equilibrium. Broadening due to extended conditions may result from changes to the spectral distribution of the radiation as it traverses its path to the observer. It also may result from the combining of radiation from a number of regions which are far from each other.


So, if we can predict that a specific broadening to occur then that means that it is quantized in a sense. But with all of these different ideas of why broadening occurs is a big question to me as I don't understand most of it.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Qualia and Differentiation

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:40 am

Viveka wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:28 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:43 am
A spectral line is still a dimension in itself, and its relation to other spectral lines forms further ones. A line is merely a dimension of space, nothing more. In these respect what we observe of qualia as direction, is merely quantity as "unit".
You're confusing the idea of a line with a spectral 'line'.
A line is still a line. To differ the qualitative aspects of a line is to form a line between them.

It is only a line because we divide its frequencies into appearances that are observable as lines. It's not like a mathematical line at all, and colors do not spawn further colors unless there are colors within colors, and although I am not sure, I believe this is seen in hyperfine structure, the Stark effect, and the Zeeman effect.
Mix two colors together. The act of relation between colors form further colors, much in the same manner the relation of frequencies form further frequencies.

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:43 am
The number of wavelengths within a given dimension of space, in theory, would be one logical answer. This number relative to the origin of the colors wavelengths (the number of wavelength in white light within a give dimension of space) would provide a ratio as "quality". The number of wavelengths, within red, as a fraction of white as potential unity is one possibility: Wx/Ry
I don't know about your mathematical fraction, but nonetheless I agree. The wavelength or frequency is what determines the color. Therefore, these are qualitative as well as quantitative.
The question would be what the standard of measurement would be. All colors, both quantitatively and qualitatively, are fractions of white light. In this respect white light would be potential unity. The question would be finding a consistent white light wave, outside a theoretical perfect vacuum. Without the perfect vaccum, white light is probabilistic and is sometimes faster and slower than itself.

Viveka
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Re: Qualia and Differentiation

Post by Viveka » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:40 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:40 am
A line is still a line. To differ the qualitative aspects of a line is to form a line between them.
You're confusing their appearance as a line as an actual line.
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:40 am
Mix two colors together. The act of relation between colors form further colors, much in the same manner the relation of frequencies form further frequencies.
The colors are not 'mixed' they are specified in the spectral lines places on the continuum of the spectrum.

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:43 am
The question would be what the standard of measurement would be. All colors, both quantitatively and qualitatively, are fractions of white light. In this respect white light would be potential unity. The question would be finding a consistent white light wave, outside a theoretical perfect vacuum. Without the perfect vaccum, white light is probabilistic and is sometimes faster and slower than itself.
Yes, if we had a perfectly white light, it would be divided into all colors. Light is never faster or slower than itself... it's always the same speed at celeritas. This could be because of vacuum permeability and permittivity.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Qualia and Differentiation

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:31 am

Viveka wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:40 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:40 am
A line is still a line. To differ the qualitative aspects of a line is to form a line between them.
You're confusing their appearance as a line as an actual line.

A line is merely a dimension that both unifies and seperates. The line between colors x and y, observes a boundary of seperation in one respect while maintaining x and y to be x and y.

Line is often times a relativistic term considering from a distance, what may appear to be a wave is a line. Up close a wave may look as it is composed of lines. The wave is merely lines relating to eachother to form a line at the macro or micro scale. Line is merely an observation of relation, usually nothing more.

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:40 am
Mix two colors together. The act of relation between colors form further colors, much in the same manner the relation of frequencies form further frequencies.
The colors are not 'mixed' they are specified in the spectral lines places on the continuum of the spectrum.

And at the continuum, looking at the color scheme option for these quotes as an example, observes colors relating to other colors to form further ones. The change in "blue" may be due to a relation with "red" or "green" and vice versa. The color spectrum observes certain ratios extending from white light: ROYGBIV, while the ratios relate to form further color. The appearance of black can be observed as all color being related to at once.

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:43 am
The question would be what the standard of measurement would be. All colors, both quantitatively and qualitatively, are fractions of white light. In this respect white light would be potential unity. The question would be finding a consistent white light wave, outside a theoretical perfect vacuum. Without the perfect vaccum, white light is probabilistic and is sometimes faster and slower than itself.
Yes, if we had a perfectly white light, it would be divided into all colors. Light is never faster or slower than itself... it's always the same speed at celeritas. This could be because of vacuum permeability and permittivity.
The same logic can be applied to the movement of "x" particle always being the same in a vaccuum condition. The problem occurs, that movement implies a degree of vaccuum already, and a perfect vaccuum would not allow any movement what so ever because there would be no where to move.

When light relates to "a" is manifests "b" speed.

When light relates to "x" it manifests "y" speed.

"A" relative to "B" and "X" relative to "Y" may be considered constant, however if x is faster than a, the speed of light of y is faster than the speed of light relative to b. In these respects, light is probabilistic.

Viveka
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Re: Qualia and Differentiation

Post by Viveka » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:09 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:31 am
Viveka wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:40 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:40 am
A line is still a line. To differ the qualitative aspects of a line is to form a line between them.
You're confusing their appearance as a line as an actual line.

A line is merely a dimension that both unifies and seperates. The line between colors x and y, observes a boundary of seperation in one respect while maintaining x and y to be x and y.

Line is often times a relativistic term considering from a distance, what may appear to be a wave is a line. Up close a wave may look as it is composed of lines. The wave is merely lines relating to eachother to form a line at the macro or micro scale. Line is merely an observation of relation, usually nothing more.
The line between colors establishes that it is not another color. The line itself is an artifact of the measuring instrument, not a real line.

As for your 'distance being relativistic' idea, I have no clue what you mean.
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:40 am
Mix two colors together. The act of relation between colors form further colors, much in the same manner the relation of frequencies form further frequencies.
The colors are not 'mixed' they are specified in the spectral lines places on the continuum of the spectrum.
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:40 am
And at the continuum, looking at the color scheme option for these quotes as an example, observes colors relating to other colors to form further ones. The change in "blue" may be due to a relation with "red" or "green" and vice versa. The color spectrum observes certain ratios extending from white light: ROYGBIV, while the ratios relate to form further color. The appearance of black can be observed as all color being related to at once.
Black is the absence of color: darkness. Pure white light would be divided into all colors. Fortunately, we do not experience pure white light due to everything being made of atoms which have a certain electron configuration in orbitals thereof being different for each object, and having different orbitals means different energies of light, which means different frequencies or wavelengths. For instance, hydrogen has n=1,2,3, etc. per energy level, which corresponds to a different wavelengths which are (1/wavelength). Then, this (1/wavelength) multiplied by the rydberg constant multipiled by planck's constant and celeritas makes for the energy of the absorption and emission of photons.

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:43 am
The same logic can be applied to the movement of "x" particle always being the same in a vaccuum condition. The problem occurs, that movement implies a degree of vaccuum already, and a perfect vaccuum would not allow any movement what so ever because there would be no where to move.

When light relates to "a" is manifests "b" speed.

When light relates to "x" it manifests "y" speed.

"A" relative to "B" and "X" relative to "Y" may be considered constant, however if x is faster than a, the speed of light of y is faster than the speed of light relative to b. In these respects, light is probabilistic.
No, light always travels at the same speed regardless of observers, but may be anchored to specific emitters. Specifically, because of vacuum permeability and permittivity, it travels at c, which wouldn't be a pure vacuum but an aether of sorts, because a pure vacuum itself is incapable of holding and propagating waves of light or bending their paths.

Light is not probabilistic in its speed, and according to quantum mechanics it is only probabilistic in its appearance as a particle or wave. I think I have solved the reason why there is wave or particle appearance. I think that it is because h*v and mc^2 are equivalent in that the first is a wave appearance, h being multiplied by frequency, and mc^2 is a cylinder appearance, with both equalling E meaning Energy. Both have the quantum of energy the same, as is their mass being the same, being an electron's mass.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Qualia and Differentiation

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:27 am

Viveka wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:09 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:31 am
Viveka wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:40 pm


You're confusing their appearance as a line as an actual line.

A line is merely a dimension that both unifies and seperates. The line between colors x and y, observes a boundary of seperation in one respect while maintaining x and y to be x and y.

Line is often times a relativistic term considering from a distance, what may appear to be a wave is a line. Up close a wave may look as it is composed of lines. The wave is merely lines relating to eachother to form a line at the macro or micro scale. Line is merely an observation of relation, usually nothing more.
The line between colors establishes that it is not another color. The line itself is an artifact of the measuring instrument, not a real line.

Yes, while simultaneously establishing the colors as thing in itself. Considering measurement is the application of dimensions, how are differentiating colors any different than establishing them as qualitative dimensions?

As for your 'distance being relativistic' idea, I have no clue what you mean.

The nature of distance is strictly the relation of lines. If two equal lines are divided seperately, one with 2 segments and the other with 3, the resulting dimensions equates the lines of 2 divisions as longer than the one of 3 dimensions, even those both lines as "infinite" are equal. Distance is merely the relation of parts, or as I call them "particulate".
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:40 am
Mix two colors together. The act of relation between colors form further colors, much in the same manner the relation of frequencies form further frequencies.
The colors are not 'mixed' they are specified in the spectral lines places on the continuum of the spectrum.

The boundaries between x and y observe x and y as z. A continuum implies a continual gradation or change or a given degree of measurement.

And at the continuum, looking at the color scheme option for these quotes as an example, observes colors relating to other colors to form further ones. The change in "blue" may be due to a relation with "red" or "green" and vice versa. The color spectrum observes certain ratios extending from white light: ROYGBIV, while the ratios relate to form further color. The appearance of black can be observed as all color being related to at once.
Black is the absence of color: darkness.
Mix all the colors together and you get black. Seperating all the wavelength continually, through multiplying their relations, and eventually you get black. Try this with paint.

Pure white light would be divided into all colors. Fortunately, we do not experience pure white light due to everything being made of atoms
The relations of particulate in turn form the wave, therefore color, in these respects colors change as and through the relation of particulate.

which have a certain electron configuration in orbitals thereof being different for each object, and having different orbitals means different energies of light, which means different frequencies or wavelengths. For instance, hydrogen has n=1,2,3, etc. per energy level, which corresponds to a different wavelengths which are (1/wavelength). Then, this (1/wavelength) multiplied by the rydberg constant multipiled by planck's constant and celeritas makes for the energy of the absorption and emission of photons.

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:43 am
The same logic can be applied to the movement of "x" particle always being the same in a vaccuum condition. The problem occurs, that movement implies a degree of vaccuum already, and a perfect vaccuum would not allow any movement what so ever because there would be no where to move.

When light relates to "a" is manifests "b" speed.

When light relates to "x" it manifests "y" speed.

"A" relative to "B" and "X" relative to "Y" may be considered constant, however if x is faster than a, the speed of light of y is faster than the speed of light relative to b. In these respects, light is probabilistic.
No, light always travels at the same speed regardless of observers,
Movement implies relation, relation implies change. Completely white light, in complete vaccuum, would have nowhere to travel extept to itself. In these respects it would have to fold into itself as a point. In a complete vaccum, the light has no where to move.

but may be anchored to specific emitters. Specifically, because of vacuum permeability and permittivity, it travels at c, which wouldn't be a pure vacuum but an aether of sorts, because a pure vacuum itself is incapable of holding and propagating waves of light or bending their paths.

As far as I understand the speed of light is measured from a theoretical perfect vaccuum. Light in a non-perfect vaccuum, by nature must be probabilistic as it relates to a variety of variables which changes its relations. These relations would cause the light to individuate into seperate cycles or frequencies which would not equal eachother.

Light is not probabilistic in its speed, and according to quantum mechanics it is only probabilistic in its appearance as a particle or wave. I think I have solved the reason why there is wave or particle appearance. I think that it is because h*v and mc^2 are equivalent in that the first is a wave appearance, h being multiplied by frequency, and mc^2 is a cylinder appearance, with both equalling E meaning Energy. Both have the quantum of energy the same, as is their mass being the same, being an electron's mass.
[/quote]

Particle wave duality can be observe as the relation of the line, as wave length, relating through the 0d point which acts as a field. Particles can be observed as the apexes of waves, with the waves merely being 1D lines relating through 0D points. Particle wave duality can be observed as actual and potential movement as particle-wave duality is strictly the observation of time.

The problem occurs, that relative to physical light, we only observe it as a particle or wave, and in these respects it is probabilistic. For light to be non-probabilistic, it cannot move as movement implies change.

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