Enlightenment

So what's really going on?

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thedoc
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by thedoc » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:23 am

Dubious wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:31 pm
Why would the "enlightened" not say! What prevents them and how would WE know if ANY of them are in such close proximity to truth if they keep their insights only to themselves? How is enlightenment conveyed if not expressed? Mind explaining that because it doesn't make sense! This cliche is nothing more than stupid oxymoron that by merely "sounding" profound is immediately accepted as conclusive by the gullible...something all religions and believers also depend on.
From your comment it is apparent that you are of a strictly western mindset and Oriental philosophy is totally beyond you. From my understanding the experience of enlightenment cannot be described in words, language is inadequate, so the enlightened masters use some form of nonverbal or nonsensical communication to guide the inexperienced to enlightenment. Part of the experience of enlightenment is the realization that individual existence is an illusion and that is far beyond western understanding.

thedoc
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by thedoc » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:26 am

Harbal wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:48 pm
thedoc wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:44 pm
The comment was without brains,
Just like all your other comments.
Thankyou for illustrating my post.

Dubious
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Dubious » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:12 am

thedoc wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:23 am
Dubious wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:31 pm
Why would the "enlightened" not say! What prevents them and how would WE know if ANY of them are in such close proximity to truth if they keep their insights only to themselves? How is enlightenment conveyed if not expressed? Mind explaining that because it doesn't make sense! This cliche is nothing more than stupid oxymoron that by merely "sounding" profound is immediately accepted as conclusive by the gullible...something all religions and believers also depend on.
From your comment it is apparent that you are of a strictly western mindset and Oriental philosophy is totally beyond you. From my understanding the experience of enlightenment cannot be described in words, language is inadequate, so the enlightened masters use some form of nonverbal or nonsensical communication to guide the inexperienced to enlightenment. Part of the experience of enlightenment is the realization that individual existence is an illusion and that is far beyond western understanding.
...so the Oriental masters try to convey the experience of enlightenment after all though in small doses by whatever means. That's not the same as saying "those who know don't say" as if it were an intentional decision to retain such advanced information.

There were also Western Masters every bit as advanced as the Oriental ones. Again you succumb to the usual cliche that being exotic they are so far advanced in their understanding as compared to us poor benighted Westerners. Do you seriously believe that in Western thought life as illusion never occurred to anyone until we began examining Oriental philosophies in the 18th and 19th centuries...when they had not the least intention of examining ours. If you think it's so profound why give that trite little Jesus story any credence. Are illusions subject to resurrections and last judgements also?

There's much that's worthy in Oriental philosophy as there is in the Western Canon but there's also an incredible amount of bunk one of which is this excessively obtuse illusion shit. No human ever knew or knows now if true or not, it remains simply a concept that in no way amounts "to a realization" of any kind. Whether illusion or not makes no difference to a species that yearns to travel to other worlds or at least have a good life in this one.

There is ZERO consolation in believing existence to be an illusion. Calling it that doesn't change anything. Orientals now have a new philosophy, compliments of the West, making money and keeping it. They managed to "understand" that real quick deeply resenting those who would deprive them of their hard earned illusions!

thedoc
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by thedoc » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:12 am

Dubious wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:12 am

...so the Oriental masters try to convey the experience of enlightenment after all though in small doses by whatever means. That's not the same as saying "those who know don't say" as if it were an intentional decision to retain such advanced information.
No, the Oriental masters wanted to convey their experience but understood that language was inadequate. There was no intention to with hold the knowledge just the understanding that it couldn't be conveyed with words.

As has been stated, 'nuff said. Quote Henry.

Dubious
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Dubious » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:47 am

thedoc wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:12 am
Dubious wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:12 am

...so the Oriental masters try to convey the experience of enlightenment after all though in small doses by whatever means. That's not the same as saying "those who know don't say" as if it were an intentional decision to retain such advanced information.
No, the Oriental masters wanted to convey their experience but understood that language was inadequate. There was no intention to with hold the knowledge just the understanding that it couldn't be conveyed with words.

As has been stated, 'nuff said. Quote Henry.
If you believe all this cliched oriental crap about life being an illusion as some great realization beyond western comprehension be my guest.

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Greta
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Greta » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:07 am

Gaining enlightenment strikes me as a bit like finishing a level in a computer game. If you finish collecting all the cherries, then on the next level you need to find gold tokens - but watch out for ghosts!

What's wrong simply with aiming for personal growth?

thedoc
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by thedoc » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:09 pm

It would probably be useful if it was specified which enlightenment was being indicated, there is some difference between the European understanding of the word and the Oriental use of the word.

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waechter418
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by waechter418 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:43 pm

There is no difference between an enlightened man and an ignorant one. What makes the difference is that one realizes it and the other is ignorant of it.



from the Discourse on Prajna by the Sixth Patriarch

thedoc
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by thedoc » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:59 pm

waechter418 wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:43 pm
There is no difference between an enlightened man and an ignorant one. What makes the difference is that one realizes it and the other is ignorant of it.

from the Discourse on Prajna by the Sixth Patriarch
So you are referring to enlightenment in the Buddhist sense, that's good to know.

Some time ago I read that 'Everyone is enlightened, but just don't know it yet'. So I figured that if I was already enlightened and just didn't know it I'll skip all the hard work and just play with my grandchildren.

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waechter418
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by waechter418 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:06 pm

Good choice :D

(i make my living as a farmer:)

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waechter418
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by waechter418 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:19 pm

This thread is to remind of enlightenment - what to do with it is every ones own business (the same for the threads about consciousness)
Apropos: i like very much your responses !

thedoc
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by thedoc » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:13 pm

waechter418 wrote:
Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:30 pm
Wonderfully said my friend :lol:

that the heightened/altered or whatever states of consciousness - which manifests during the sexual rising of the Kundalini - rarely lasts, demonstrates our lack of concentration (whose improvement is one of the first tasks of a Tantra school).
So if you have better concentration you can make it last longer.

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waechter418
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by waechter418 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:17 pm

Rituals, mantras, postures are most commonly used to fortify & increase concentration.
But there are many other methods - and in my opinion it is best to develop ones own.

thedoc
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by thedoc » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:32 pm

waechter418 wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:17 pm
Rituals, mantras, postures are most commonly used to fortify & increase concentration.
But there are many other methods - and in my opinion it is best to develop ones own.
You would make a good politician refusing to state your own ideas but stating that there are many who believe different ideas, just as Steve Fielding did on the video linked, very evasive answers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05Kp_JCEsto

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waechter418
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by waechter418 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:04 pm

Suggestion: make your traps less simpleminded :)

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