The mental Universe

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uwot
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The mental Universe

Post by uwot » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:05 pm

I read this http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf and thought Mr. Can might appreciate it. No, really! Sample quote:
“The ultimate cause of atheism, Newton asserted, is ‘this notion of bodies having, as it were, a complete, absolute and independent reality in themselves.’” For anyone who actually reads anything I post, it's a fun but serious argument against materialism by a pukka academic.

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attofishpi
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Re: The mental Universe

Post by attofishpi » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:21 pm

uwot wrote:I read this http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf and thought Mr. Can might appreciate it. No, really! Sample quote:
“The ultimate cause of atheism, Newton asserted, is ‘this notion of bodies having, as it were, a complete, absolute and independent reality in themselves.’” For anyone who actually reads anything I post, it's a fun but serious argument against materialism by a pukka academic.
It's late here will have to read it later, but as per your post - yes, its the way i see atheist's POV - they seem to consider things in bricks and mortar - atoms in fact - wherein there is a lot more shit going on even below that level - as i know you are aware. The point is our consciousness is also made up of this ethereal energy, and from experience, there is more to reality than meets the average mind.

Reality is a convoluted apparition of the Truth.

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Harbal
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Re: The mental Universe

Post by Harbal » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:24 pm

attofishpi wrote: yes, its the way i see atheist's POV - they seem to consider things in bricks and mortar - atoms in fact - wherein there is a lot more shit going on even below that level - as i know you are aware. The point is our consciousness is also made up of this ethereal energy, and from experience, there is more to reality than meets the average mind.
In my experience people don't walk on water or come back to life after they've died, or communicate with me via a disembodied voice, for that matter. To my mind, that's good enough reason to suppose these things don't happen. While there is undoubtedly more to reality than we know, that's no reason to invent stuff willy nilly.

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Re: The mental Universe

Post by attofishpi » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:40 pm

Harbal wrote:
attofishpi wrote: yes, its the way i see atheist's POV - they seem to consider things in bricks and mortar - atoms in fact - wherein there is a lot more shit going on even below that level - as i know you are aware. The point is our consciousness is also made up of this ethereal energy, and from experience, there is more to reality than meets the average mind.
In my experience people don't walk on water or come back to life after they've died, or communicate with me via a disembodied voice, for that matter. To my mind, that's good enough reason to suppose these things don't happen. While there is undoubtedly more to reality than we know, that's no reason to invent stuff willy nilly.
Will he kneel will he?

Granted - i considered if i had not been put through a theist upbringing - i would definitely consider ALL theism a pile of bollocks. But since this entity has made me aware of its existence, it has been also a consideration that 'IT' put me into that family that put me through a theist upbringing - and i am glad of it, since it is the truth.
Walking on water? Coming back to life? Big deal - what i have witnessed over the years of what this entity can do - thats barely the surface of it.
Who's inventing what? Willy nilly?

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Harbal
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Re: The mental Universe

Post by Harbal » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:29 pm

attofishpi wrote: Walking on water? Coming back to life? Big deal - what i have witnessed over the years of what this entity can do - thats barely the surface of it.
I can't comment on your experience, I can only live according to my own.
Who's inventing what? Willy nilly?
That wasn't directed at you, I don't know your reasons for believing whatever you believe. I can only speak from my own, subjective perspective but when I look at the content of the religions I'm aware of I can't help but wonder how they could convince anybody.

uwot
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Re: The mental Universe

Post by uwot » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:24 pm

Harbal wrote:While there is undoubtedly more to reality than we know, that's no reason to invent stuff willy nilly.
It's what people do. If you're a scientist and you make up some story, the other scientists will tell you to invent a machine that goes 'ping' if your story is true. No such restrictions on religion. If you make up some religious story, the world's your oyster: you can baffle people into agreement with spurious logic, offer them sweeties, scream at them or threaten to cut their heads off if they don't accept your fairy-tale. With a bit of determination, you can get loads of people to believe all sorts of ridiculous things.

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Re: The mental Universe

Post by uwot » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:27 pm

Harbal wrote:I can't comment on your experience, I can only live according to my own.
'Ere, Harbal, someone sensible has nicked your identity.

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Re: The mental Universe

Post by attofishpi » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:29 pm

uwot wrote:
Harbal wrote:While there is undoubtedly more to reality than we know, that's no reason to invent stuff willy nilly.
It's what people do. If you're a scientist and you make up some story, the other scientists will tell you to invent a machine that goes 'ping' if your story is true. No such restrictions on religion. If you make up some religious story, the world's your oyster: you can baffle people into agreement with spurious logic, offer them sweeties, scream at them or threaten to cut their heads off if they don't accept your fairy-tale. With a bit of determination, you can get loads of people to believe all sorts of ridiculous things.
Why is it ridiculous to believe in many of these 'things'?
Many a man have been comforted in their faith through Christ, through many a battle and hardship. As with their beloved left wondering if they will return from the battlefield. What did atheism ever bring to comfort people over these difficult times?

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Re: The mental Universe

Post by uwot » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:14 pm

attofishpi wrote:Why is it ridiculous to believe in many of these 'things'?
Many a man have been comforted in their faith through Christ, through many a battle and hardship. As with their beloved left wondering if they will return from the battlefield.
Yeah, I don't have a problem with any of that. I was thinking more along the lines of chopping the end of you're baby son's penis is a good idea, sex outside of marriage is a bad idea, homosexuality is an abomination, this biscuit is the body of Christ, everyone who doesn't get their head splashed with water will burn in hell. Stuff like that.
attofishpi wrote:What did atheism ever bring to comfort people over these difficult times?
Well, atheism is just the lack of belief in a god. It doesn't mean that you cannot believe in the beauty and value of life and sacrifice. It doesn't even rule out an afterlife. People can find comfort where they need it, without being shackled to incoherent myths and pointless rituals.

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Harbal
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Re: The mental Universe

Post by Harbal » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:02 pm

uwot wrote: 'Ere, Harbal, someone sensible has nicked your identity.
Yes, it looks like someone is trying to ruin my reputation.

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Re: The mental Universe

Post by attofishpi » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:10 am

uwot wrote:
attofishpi wrote:Why is it ridiculous to believe in many of these 'things'?
Many a man have been comforted in their faith through Christ, through many a battle and hardship. As with their beloved left wondering if they will return from the battlefield.
Yeah, I don't have a problem with any of that. I was thinking more along the lines of chopping the end of you're baby son's penis is a good idea, sex outside of marriage is a bad idea, homosexuality is an abomination, this biscuit is the body of Christ, everyone who doesn't get their head splashed with water will burn in hell. Stuff like that.
In my youth and traveling in a car with four friends, it became apparent via some random conversation that three of the occupants of the car had been circumcised, and myself and one other chap hadn't. The three that had had the chop were all atheists and from atheist families, i turned to the other that hadn't had the chop and it turned out we were both from Catholic upbringings.
As far as the sex outside marriage, homosexuality, not getting your head splashed means one will burn in hell - well, in all the years of Catholic primary school and secondary school - and attending church, i never heard one mention of any of this. All i was taught was Christ's teachings, goodwill to fellow man, being kind and generous to strangers, forgiveness to those that may wrong me and not seeking revenge..etc..
I don't think Christ taught any of these views you have presented.
The 'biscuit is the body of Christ' -well, it was to be done in memory of Christ, no rational theist is going to believe it actually is his body - wot a laff.
uwot wrote:
attofishpi wrote:What did atheism ever bring to comfort people over these difficult times?
Well, atheism is just the lack of belief in a god. It doesn't mean that you cannot believe in the beauty and value of life and sacrifice. It doesn't even rule out an afterlife. People can find comfort where they need it, without being shackled to incoherent myths and pointless rituals.
I don't think being a Christian means i am shackled by any measure, i don't see an incoherent myth to the story of Christ. As far as the rituals go - for example Mass every Sunday in Catholocism - yes i think its taking Christs instruction overboard - he didn't break the bread, pass it to his disciples and state 'eat this all of you and do it every Sunday in memory of me.'

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Re: The mental Universe

Post by thedoc » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:26 am

attofishpi wrote:
uwot wrote:I read this http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf and thought Mr. Can might appreciate it. No, really! Sample quote:
“The ultimate cause of atheism, Newton asserted, is ‘this notion of bodies having, as it were, a complete, absolute and independent reality in themselves.’” For anyone who actually reads anything I post, it's a fun but serious argument against materialism by a pukka academic.
It's late here will have to read it later, but as per your post - yes, its the way i see atheist's POV - they seem to consider things in bricks and mortar - atoms in fact - wherein there is a lot more shit going on even below that level - as i know you are aware. The point is our consciousness is also made up of this ethereal energy, and from experience, there is more to reality than meets the average mind.

Reality is a convoluted apparition of the Truth.
“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
― William Shakespeare, Hamlet

uwot
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Re: The mental Universe

Post by uwot » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:01 am

attofishpi wrote:In my youth and traveling in a car with four friends, it became apparent via some random conversation that three of the occupants of the car had been circumcised, and myself and one other chap hadn't. The three that had had the chop were all atheists and from atheist families, i turned to the other that hadn't had the chop and it turned out we were both from Catholic upbringings.
The Vatican view of circumcision for religious purposes is that it's immoral. Until the late twentieth century, there was an argument that circumcision is 'hygienic'. It isn't. So yes, your experience makes sense, but I think a bunch of blokes driving around Jeddah or Jerusalem might reach a different conclusion.
attofishpi wrote:As far as the sex outside marriage, homosexuality, not getting your head splashed means one will burn in hell - well, in all the years of Catholic primary school and secondary school - and attending church, i never heard one mention of any of this. All i was taught was Christ's teachings, goodwill to fellow man, being kind and generous to strangers, forgiveness to those that may wrong me and not seeking revenge..etc..
I don't think Christ taught any of these views you have presented.
Again, that is your experience and as I said, I have nothing against the goodwill stuff. But regardless of whether Jesus said any of it, it is all official doctrine of the catholic church.
attofishpi wrote:The 'biscuit is the body of Christ' -well, it was to be done in memory of Christ, no rational theist is going to believe it actually is his body - wot a laff.
Tell that to the pope.
attofishpi wrote:I don't think being a Christian means i am shackled by any measure, i don't see an incoherent myth to the story of Christ.
I don't get the impression that you are, but again, that is your experience and it is very different to others'; my father and mother in law, for example.
attofishpi wrote:As far as the rituals go - for example Mass every Sunday in Catholocism - yes i think its taking Christs instruction overboard - he didn't break the bread, pass it to his disciples and state 'eat this all of you and do it every Sunday in memory of me.'
Frankly, I don't have a problem with rituals either. People can party as they see fit, so long as it doesn't bother anyone else.

uwot
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Re: The mental Universe

Post by uwot » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:05 am

thedoc wrote:“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
― William Shakespeare, Hamlet
Which science has conclusively demonstrated since Shakespeare's time. As it happens though, Hamlet was referring to ghosts. I'm not sure what your take on ghosts is.

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Re: The mental Universe

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:51 am

Got to smile that after all he said he ends it with "The Universe is ...". Surely not!?

Let alone that he pops in 'spiritual' and even 'immaterial'.

Amazing how Kant appears to have been unheard of by many.

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