If there is a Self, where is it?

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Ginkgo
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Ginkgo » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:33 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Ginkgo wrote:
Dontaskme wrote: All there is is consciousness. Brains are not conscious. Consciousness is the brain, and the trees, and the flowers, and you know......
"Brains are not conscious." followed by "Consciousness is the brain." is another contradiction in terms.
The one who speaks of contradiction or relationship, same thing, does not exist separate from what already IS one without a second.
Contradiction is unavoidable in that you cannot know what you are.. without also knowing what you are not. To know what you are not is to know what you are. To know what you are is to know what you are not.

No one knows this.
You seem to be suggesting the problem is mine. I am not the one posting contradictions so please don't portray the argument as my problem.

BTW If you are happy posting contradictions then there is not a lot more to say as far as I can see.

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henry quirk
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"Perfect response, Henry!"

Post by henry quirk » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:31 pm

Yes, it is.

Relinquish
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Re: "Perfect response, Henry!"

Post by Relinquish » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:59 pm

henry quirk wrote:Yes, it is.
Couldn't have been otherwise.

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henry quirk
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"Couldn't have been otherwise."

Post by henry quirk » Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:49 pm

Yep, but for not for the reason you think.

Relinquish
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Re: "Couldn't have been otherwise."

Post by Relinquish » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:06 pm

henry quirk wrote:Yep, but for not for the reason you think.
What reason do I think it's for?

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:00 pm

Here's what you wrote up-thread...

Perfect response, Henry! :)

I'm sure it is.

The question is, is there any possibility at all of anything else happening? Could 'Henry' choose that this 'nonsense' NOT get up his nose, and if not, could he respond to it getting up his nose in any other way?

I bet he couldn't, and that's PERFECTLY FINE! It's just the way It goes, apparently. ;)


...you're a (hard) determinist and believe I have no choice in what I do, how I respond or react.

Am I wrong?

Relinquish
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Re:

Post by Relinquish » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:27 pm

henry quirk wrote:...you're a (hard) determinist and believe I have no choice in what I do, how I respond or react.
Weeeeell......almost.

The view is this;

In truth, all that is really happening is the single, seamless process of 'change' itself (commonly known as the universe).

This process gets it's characteristic asymmetrical structure simply from the fact that (being 'finite') it is the inseperable opposite of the causeless presence that is the Eternal Infinity itself, the nature of which is ever-changless, formless and perfectly symmetrical.

The only COHERENT ever-changing asymmetry is a 'FRACTAL' ever-changing asymmetry.

ALL apparent 'things' and 'events' are as they are simply because they are all 'parts' of this one eternally cyclic process.

Evidently, there are (at least for the moment) certain 'organic' parts of the process that are conscious of themselves and of their surroundings. This basic fact indicates that the universe is actually a (or rather, THE) Living Organism, naturally possessing a countless number of 'nerve ends' at all the appropriate points of it's 'body' (which are commonly known as 'life forms').

This, in turn, indicates that the causeless presence of the Eternal Infinity is actually none other than Life Itself.

Some of the nerve ends of the Organism are of such an extreme level of physical complexity that they have the natural capacity to become 'hypnotized' by their surroundings. This hypnosis makes it seem to these extremely complex nerve ends (a.k.a. intelligent body/mind life-forms) that they are the separate, autonomous originators of their own particular movements.

As such, the absolute harmony that naturally exists between all the 'parts' of the Organism (and therefore, the Organism itself) is impossible to be seen by these hypnotized nerve ends.

In other words, there is no real 'Henry', and therefore, no real 'self' there either to have a choice or to have no choice.

:)
Last edited by Relinquish on Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Re:

Post by Terrapin Station » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:56 pm

Relinquish wrote:This process gets it's characteristic asymmetrical structure simply from the fact that (being 'finite') it is the inseperable opposite of the causeless presence that is the Eternal Infinity itself, the nature of which is ever-changless, formless and perfectly symmetrical.
Um, what??

Relinquish
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Re: Re:

Post by Relinquish » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:39 am

Terrapin Station wrote:
Relinquish wrote:This process gets it's characteristic asymmetrical structure simply from the fact that (being 'finite') it is the inseperable opposite of the causeless presence that is the Eternal Infinity itself, the nature of which is ever-changless, formless and perfectly symmetrical.
Um, what??
Oh, no biggie.

Just my little attempt to explain why LITERALLY EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE is the way it is, and why it's happening the way it's happening.

Of course, there is absolutely no way to know whether or not it or any other explanation is even vaguely pointing in the general direction of Truth, but it seems to make sense to me, and hopefully it makes sense to at least someone else here on this forum.

If not, all good!

:)

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Fri Nov 11, 2016 4:13 pm

"In other words, there is no real 'Henry', and therefore, no real 'self' there either to have a choice or to have no choice."

Yeah, well: I disagree.

Seems to me I'm real...seems to me I exist...seems to me I make all manner of choices, large and small, all the time.

So: I'm gonna stick with that, if that's okay with you.

shortyguy
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by shortyguy » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:17 pm

If the self is just an idea, created by this entity thinking about this idea that moment, how can we describe the entity having this thought?

If the answer is, that we describe it as the self, than we have to realize that humans have no way to describe anything they experience without using human ideas or concepts. We can not avoid our frame of reference. But what we can do, is not become emotionally attached to ideas and remind ourselves that these are not real but just how we have to go through life to understand reality.

Relinquish
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Re:

Post by Relinquish » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:20 pm

henry quirk wrote:"In other words, there is no real 'Henry', and therefore, no real 'self' there either to have a choice or to have no choice."

Yeah, well: I disagree.

Seems to me I'm real...seems to me I exist...seems to me I make all manner of choices, large and small, all the time.

So: I'm gonna stick with that, if that's okay with you.
Sweet as, man! Obviously those conclusions certainly SEEM to be justified, and that's why an attempt was made to provide a very thorough explanation as to WHY they SEEM to be.

The fact is, though, that the belief that you are a mere 'fragment' that is potentially worthy of praise or blame will inevitably and lamentably hide the absolute harmony, perfection and completeness that is always present everywhere, and instead make it seem to be a confusingly fragmented, hostile and threatening situation, which you will attempt to get away from in one way or another, which will in turn only make it worse, because it's impossible to get away from.

Just be aware of that.

:)

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Dontaskme
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:21 am

shortyguy wrote:If the self is just an idea, created by this entity thinking about this idea that moment, how can we describe the entity having this thought?

If the answer is, that we describe it as the self, than we have to realize that humans have no way to describe anything they experience without using human ideas or concepts. We can not avoid our frame of reference. But what we can do, is not become emotionally attached to ideas and remind ourselves that these are not real but just how we have to go through life to understand reality.
Well said shorty.


In other words thoughts can't stop and think about themselves. No more than the wind can blow itself or rain can wet itself or fire burn itself.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Re:

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:51 am

Relinquish wrote:
The fact is, though, that the belief that you are a mere 'fragment' that is potentially worthy of praise or blame will inevitably and lamentably hide the absolute harmony, perfection and completeness that is always present everywhere, and instead make it seem to be a confusingly fragmented, hostile and threatening situation, which you will attempt to get away from in one way or another, which will in turn only make it worse, because it's impossible to get away from.

Just be aware of that.

:)
Thanks for bringing this point to attention Relinquish.

To believe in the concept of 'I' as in I'm existing here as this body, and 'out -here' is separate from this 'me' here is a contracting energy making one feel very small indeed, which can be quite frightening.

Imagine a little 'me' against a 'big' wide-world 'out-there' ..how limiting is that?
The thing is ..to know you exist is a contraction into 'self-consciousness' where no such self resides. Consciousness artificially creates itself, by objectifying itself conceptually. It makes contact with itself only by artificially conceiving itself.

Here, there is no one to be conscious of them self except in this conception. The conception of 'I' is a totally unique human quality built from pure imagination such as thought or via the auditory illusion of language...aka knowledge.

The living world IS...but it has no concept of itself, any concept of what the ''what is'' is....is an artificially created superimposed idea.


No one is living the eternal circle of life without beginning nor end, so getting out of it...via suicide is not an option.

Ginkgo
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Re: Re:

Post by Ginkgo » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:37 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Relinquish wrote:
The fact is, though, that the belief that you are a mere 'fragment' that is potentially worthy of praise or blame will inevitably and lamentably hide the absolute harmony, perfection and completeness that is always present everywhere, and instead make it seem to be a confusingly fragmented, hostile and threatening situation, which you will attempt to get away from in one way or another, which will in turn only make it worse, because it's impossible to get away from.

Just be aware of that.

:)
Thanks for bringing this point to attention Relinquish.

To believe in the concept of 'I' as in I'm existing here as this body, and 'out -here' is separate from this 'me' here is a contracting energy making one feel very small indeed, which can be quite frightening.

Imagine a little 'me' against a 'big' wide-world 'out-there' ..how limiting is that?
The thing is ..to know you exist is a contraction into 'self-consciousness' where no such self resides. Consciousness artificially creates itself, by objectifying itself conceptually. It makes contact with itself only by artificially conceiving itself.

Here, there is no one to be conscious of them self except in this conception. The conception of 'I' is a totally unique human quality built from pure imagination such as thought or via the auditory illusion of language...aka knowledge.

The living world IS...but it has no concept of itself, any concept of what the ''what is'' is....is an artificially created superimposed idea.


No one is living the eternal circle of life without beginning nor end, so getting out of it...via suicide is not an option.
Just wondering why you are replying in bold print.

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