If there is a Self, where is it?

So what's really going on?

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Walker
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Re:

Post by Walker » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:38 pm

henry quirk wrote:"That's what I'm asking you ?"

No, you asked 'where is the self?', I asked 'who or what posted the question?'.

#

"No separate self can be pointed to"

As I define self, yes you can...go look in a mirror...you'll be looking at a (your) self...meet me for coffee and doughnuts...the thing sitting across the table from you, bald, poorly dressed, smelling like an ashtray (me), that's another self...the woman we both notice with the too-tight top and painted-on jeans, she's a self too.

What is 'self'?

It's the discrete flesh and blood, bone and brain, enitity that is not only outwardly conscious but inwardly (inward-directed) conscious.

Butcherin' the Beatles: you are you, and he is he, and I am me and, no, we're not 'together'.
That’s basically what a geshe says, minus the girl. It takes about 20 years to earn a geshe degree.
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wrote:The definition of person is an I imputed in dependence upon any of the five aggregates.
Person, being, self, and I are synonyms. The function of a person is to perform actions and experience their results.

The five aggregates of a person are the aggregate of form, which is a person’s body; the aggregate of consciousness, which is a person’s primary minds; and the aggregates of feeling, discrimination, and compositional factors, which are a person’s secondary minds, or mental factors. Here, from within the fifty-one mental factors, feeling and discrimination are selected and listed as the third and fourth aggregates, and the remaining forty-nine mental factors are included within the fifth aggregate, the aggregate of compositional factors. From this we can see that all five aggregates are included within a person’s body and mind.

Source: Understanding the Mind, The Nature and Power of the Mind

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Terrapin Station
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Terrapin Station » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:51 pm

Dontaskme wrote:Where is this Self that everyone seems to be talking about?
It's a set of brain states.

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RG1
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by RG1 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:42 pm

henry quirk wrote:Who or what wrote this...

There is only an 'experiencing entity' (aka "Experiencer") that experiences the sensory experiences that comprise the thought/notion of “Self”.

...this inquiring self wants to know.
The physical body, known as RG1, wrote this.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:46 pm

RG1,

In your view: a body that can do nuthin' but experience (it can't innovate, can't consider, can't assess, can't choose' can't self-direct), can and does 'react' (in some marvelous and complex ways), and -- by way of reaction -- produces marvelous and complex 'things' (like a sentence [a symbolic construct; placeholding symbols connected by other, non-placeholding, symbols]).

This is what you hold to?

Dontaskme
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Re:

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:17 pm

henry quirk wrote:
"No separate self can be pointed to"

As I define self, yes you can...go look in a mirror...you'll be looking at a (your) self...
The image seen in a mirror is the ''looked upon''...not the looker itself. The looker cannot be seen by what it is looking at for they are inseparable. So the ''looked upon'' is the looker that cannot be seen. Is there a 'self' in a mirror image?
Can the ''looked upon'' then look at at itself? ..no it can't, if it could, that would mean there are two lookers, the one looking and the other one that is the ''looked upon''/reflected. Can a reflection see anything? No, it can't...it can't see where the looking is coming from, because it is already the looking.
henry quirk wrote:What is 'self'?

It's the discrete flesh and blood, bone and brain, enitity that is not only outwardly conscious but inwardly (inward-directed) conscious.
The self is not the body. The fingers are typing lettered keys on a computer, but there is no self in the finger. The finger is not conscious. The finger is an experience of consciousness. Consciousness cannot be an experience because it is not a thing. It's the no thing that is doing all things. There is only the physical experience via the body instrument typing. Is there a self typing? Or is there just typing happening known as finger in the experience occurring concurrently with the action of typing by the finger.?

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RG1
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by RG1 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:51 pm

henry quirk wrote:RG1, in your view: a body that can do nuthin' but experience (it can't innovate, can't consider, can't assess, can't choose' can't self-direct), can and does'react' (in some marvelous and complex ways), and -- by way of reaction -- produces marvelous and complex 'things' (like a sentence [a symbolic construct; placeholding symbols connected by other, non-placeholding, symbols]).

This is what you hold to?
Yes, correct. Our bodies react as they have been acted upon.

Note: there can be NO 'self', or 'magical genie' within, directing these reactions, as it is not logically possible!

Ginkgo
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Ginkgo » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:16 am

Dontaskme wrote:The Self is an idea.

And I've no idea what an idea is.
If you don't now what an idea is then you cannot know the self is an idea.

Dontaskme
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:47 am

Ginkgo wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:The Self is an idea.

And I've no idea what an idea is.
If you don't now what an idea is then you cannot know the self is an idea.
Yeah it's an oxymoron, such is the weirdness of the imagination.

Who or what is attaching itself to an idea, but an idea itself?

Ginkgo
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Ginkgo » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:04 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Ginkgo wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:The Self is an idea.

And I've no idea what an idea is.
If you don't now what an idea is then you cannot know the self is an idea.
Yeah it's an oxymoron, such is the weirdness of the imagination.

Who or what is attaching itself to an idea, but an idea itself?
An oxymoron contains contradictory terms that appear together in a single phrase. What you have is a contradiction in terms.

Relinquish
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Relinquish » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:03 pm

In Reality, there are no real 'solely self-inclusive forms' (which a 'self' would have to be if it was real), and so there is simply no possibility of a real self existing anywhere, ever.

This post was typed by (and is being read by) an extremely complex 'nerve end' belonging to the Fundamental Organism of Life Itself. These nerve ends have never been (and will never be) in control of there own particular movements, in any sense whatsoever.

It sure does SEEM like they are, but that's just an illusion.

Londoner
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Londoner » Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:23 pm

Dontaskme wrote:Where is this Self that everyone seems to be talking about?
You understand 'everyone'. If you do not have an understanding of 'self', what does 'everyone' mean?

Dontaskme
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:07 am

Londoner wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:Where is this Self that everyone seems to be talking about?
You understand 'everyone'. If you do not have an understanding of 'self', what does 'everyone' mean?
Reality, being ever One with itself, it cannot perceive that which it Is; it can only perceive what it is not.

Dontaskme
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:10 am

Ginkgo wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:
Ginkgo wrote:
If you don't now what an idea is then you cannot know the self is an idea.
Yeah it's an oxymoron, such is the weirdness of the imagination.

Who or what is attaching itself to an idea, but an idea itself?
An oxymoron contains contradictory terms that appear together in a single phrase. What you have is a contradiction in terms.

Attempting to identify with the source is an idea. You are already that.

Ginkgo
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Ginkgo » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:20 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Ginkgo wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:
Yeah it's an oxymoron, such is the weirdness of the imagination.

Who or what is attaching itself to an idea, but an idea itself?
An oxymoron contains contradictory terms that appear together in a single phrase. What you have is a contradiction in terms.

Attempting to identify with the source is an idea. You are already that.

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say.

Dontaskme
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:59 am

Ginkgo wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:
Ginkgo wrote:
An oxymoron contains contradictory terms that appear together in a single phrase. What you have is a contradiction in terms.

Attempting to identify with the source is an idea. You are already that.

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say.
You are already what you are before an identification is made.

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