If there is a Self, where is it?

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Dontaskme
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If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:52 pm

Where is this Self that everyone seems to be talking about?

Skip
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Skip » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:21 pm

It's in there > .

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:42 pm

Don,

The first post in this thread reads...

Where is this Self that everyone seems to be talking about?

...tell me: who or what conceived the question, then typed it out?

Impenitent
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Impenitent » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:58 pm

pineal gland

-Imp

Ginkgo
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Ginkgo » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:40 am

Dontaskme wrote:Where is this Self that everyone seems to be talking about?

Cartesian theater
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Objects experienced are represented within the mind of the observer

"Cartesian theater" is a derisive term coined by philosopher and cognitive scientist Daniel Dennett to refer pointedly to a defining aspect of what he calls Cartesian materialism, which he considers to be the often unacknowledged remnants of Cartesian dualism in modern materialistic theories of the mind.

Descartes originally claimed that consciousness requires an immaterial soul, which interacts with the body via the pineal gland of the brain. Dennett says that, when the dualism is removed, what remains of Descartes' original model amounts to imagining a tiny theater in the brain where a homunculus (small person), now physical, performs the task of observing all the sensory data projected on a screen at a particular instant, making the decisions and sending out commands (cf. the homunculus argument).

The term Cartesian Theater was brought up in the context of the multiple drafts model that Dennett posits in Consciousness Explained (1991):

Cartesian materialism is the view that there is a crucial finish line or boundary somewhere in the brain, marking a place where the order of arrival equals the order of "presentation" in experience because what happens there is what you are conscious of. [...] Many theorists would insist that they have explicitly rejected such an obviously bad idea. But [...] the persuasive imagery of the Cartesian Theater keeps coming back to haunt us—laypeople and scientists alike—even after its ghostly dualism has been denounced and exorcized.
— Daniel Dennett, Consciousness Explained [p.107, original emphasis.][1]

Philosophy Explorer
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:08 am

Nowheres and everywheres.

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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Ginkgo » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:55 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:Nowheres and everywheres.

PhilX

Funny you should say that. Dennett's Multiple Drafts theory attempts to debunk the Cartesian Theatre. Dennett proposes a multiple drafts model, whereby the "self" is a brain state spread throughout the brain in place and time. Prinz, on the other hand, proposes an Attended Intermediate Level Representation theory, whereby the "self" arises at the intermediate level of perception. In both cases Prinz and Dennett would claim "self" is illusory. Both theories are compatible with materialism/physicalism.

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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:07 am

Ginkgo wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:Nowheres and everywheres.

PhilX

Funny you should say that. Dennett's Multiple Drafts theory attempts to debunk the Cartesian Theatre. Dennett proposes a multiple drafts model, whereby the "self" is a brain state spread throughout the brain in place and time. Prinz, on the other hand, proposes an Attended Intermediate Level Representation theory, whereby the "self" arises at the intermediate level of perception. In both cases Prinz and Dennett would claim "self" is illusory. Both theories are compatible with materialism/physicalism.
The self is often associated with the brain. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle says we can't know the position and the momentum of any particle with perfect precision. This means the particles of the brain can be scattered throughout the galaxy so if the self is associated with the brain, then its location can't be pinpointed. That's my reasoning.

PhilX

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Dontaskme
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:34 am

The Self is an idea.

And I've no idea what an idea is.

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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by HexHammer » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:05 am

Dontaskme wrote:Where is this Self that everyone seems to be talking about?
Are you intentionally asking silly questions or just can't help yourself?

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Dontaskme
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Re:

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:07 am

henry quirk wrote:Don,

The first post in this thread reads...

Where is this Self that everyone seems to be talking about?

...tell me: who or what conceived the question, then typed it out?
That's what I'm asking you ? ..and now you are echoing that question back to 'me' ...which must be another 'you' for who else is there here? :D

There seems to be a common belief flying around these days that the so called self, namely 'you' is separate from myself called 'me'

Is that really true Henry?

However much we question the whereabouts of the assumed separate Self, it's like where does the 'me' stop and the 'you' begin?

No separate self can be pointed to...and neither can oneness...without creating a split duality...comprised of the pointer and the pointed.

So there can only be ''pointing'' happening here.

It's like an arrow can point to everything and everywhere except it's own self...just using the arrow as an analogy to why we can't know the self, because we already are it. That in and of itself is proof on oneness.

This is Nondual truth. But who's going to believe it?

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Dontaskme
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:16 am

HexHammer wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:Where is this Self that everyone seems to be talking about?
Are you intentionally asking silly questions or just can't help yourself?
Does HexHammer have a separate being or existence, distinct, independent, self-contained separate from that of a tree?

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:57 pm

"That's what I'm asking you ?"

No, you asked 'where is the self?', I asked 'who or what posted the question?'.

#

"No separate self can be pointed to"

As I define self, yes you can...go look in a mirror...you'll be looking at a (your) self...meet me for coffee and doughnuts...the thing sitting across the table from you, bald, poorly dressed, smelling like an ashtray (me), that's another self...the woman we both notice with the too-tight top and painted-on jeans, she's a self too.

What is 'self'?

It's the discrete flesh and blood, bone and brain, enitity that is not only outwardly conscious but inwardly (inward-directed) conscious.

Butcherin' the Beatles: you are you, and he is he, and I am me and, no, we're not 'together'.

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RG1
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by RG1 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:30 pm

Dontaskme wrote:The Self is an idea.
Bingo.
Dontaskme wrote:And I’ve no idea what an idea is.
It is a notion; a thought. It is nothing more than a group of sensations (sensory experiences).

There is NO Self. There is only an 'experiencing entity' (aka "Experiencer") that experiences the sensory experiences that comprise the thought/notion of “Self”.

"Self" does not exist in reality, but only in imagination (…as an idea; as a group of experiences). -- That’s it, that’s all.

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henry quirk
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Re: If there is a Self, where is it?

Post by henry quirk » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:02 pm

RG1,

Who or what wrote this...

There is only an 'experiencing entity' (aka "Experiencer") that experiences the sensory experiences that comprise the thought/notion of “Self”.

...this inquiring self wants to know.

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