What is the use of self?

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bahman
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What is the use of self?

Post by bahman » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:21 pm

We know that any system is functional if it does X by receiving Y, where X is a set of actions (output) and Y is a set of stimulus (input). The question is what is the use of self if the system, human for example, can function without it?
Last edited by bahman on Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: What is the use of self?

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:18 pm

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You're kind-of asking, what is the use of consciousness? I think, self, in the way you used it, means consciousness; our ability to see ourselves.


It is true consciousness; self-consciousness is not necessarily a trait of being human. And you have asked a good question.


Self-consciousness is something that can be developed.It's a strange burden and yet it can make your life worth living.






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bahman
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Re: What is the use of self?

Post by bahman » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:32 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.





You're kind-of asking, what is the use of consciousness? I think, self, in the way you used it, means consciousness; our ability to see ourselves.


It is true consciousness; self-consciousness is not necessarily a trait of being human. And you have asked a good question.


Self-consciousness is something that can be developed.It's a strange burden and yet it can make your life worth living.






.
No. Self is simply what you are. You in fact experience your self (existence) indirectly through consciousness by experiencing your actions.

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Re: What is the use of self?

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:30 am

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Well, yes & no. If YOU think that you are a function then that's fine. That is good for YOU. That is what YOU believe the self to be.


Many people believe that they find self or identify self as consciousness; self-consciousness. More of a state-of-being rather than a function.


Kind-of like two major schools of basic philosophy.








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ken
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Re: What is the use of self?

Post by ken » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:40 am

bahman wrote:We know that any system is functional if it does X by receiving Y, where X is a set of actions (output) and Y is a set of stimulus (input). The question is what is the use of self if the system, human for example, can function without it?
But how could a human being exist without input?

If a human body did not have any of the five senses, which is what allows Y (input), then would it be anything much more than just a lump of meat, with organs, for lack of a better name?

How could a human body function without Y? What could it actually do?

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bahman
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Re: What is the use of self?

Post by bahman » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:05 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.





Well, yes & no. If YOU think that you are a function then that's fine. That is good for YOU. That is what YOU believe the self to be.


Many people believe that they find self or identify self as consciousness; self-consciousness. More of a state-of-being rather than a function.


Kind-of like two major schools of basic philosophy.








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Can you give me an example of an activity that you don't function?

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bahman
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Re: What is the use of self?

Post by bahman » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:08 pm

ken wrote:
bahman wrote: We know that any system is functional if it does X by receiving Y, where X is a set of actions (output) and Y is a set of stimulus (input). The question is what is the use of self if the system, human for example, can function without it?
But how could a human being exist without input?

If a human body did not have any of the five senses, which is what allows Y (input), then would it be anything much more than just a lump of meat, with organs, for lack of a better name?

How could a human body function without Y? What could it actually do?
We are questioning self and not input.

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Re: What is the use of self?

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:46 pm

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The intellectual function is an example of a function of being human. The narration that is in your head is a GREAT example of how the intellectual function works. The words you type here is a reflection of your intellectual function.


Consciousness, in ALL of it's various forms is an example of state of being. One's consciousness just is. Consciousness alone does not perform any function itself. Although some individuals believe that we, to some degree, are able to affect our states of consciousness.


Hope that helps.












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Re: What is the use of self?

Post by Ginkgo » Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:14 am

bahman wrote:We know that any system is functional if it does X by receiving Y, where X is a set of actions (output) and Y is a set of stimulus (input). The question is what is the use of self if the system, human for example, can function without it?
It can't, otherwise we would be philosophical zombies.

Philosophical zombie
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Zombie (disambiguation).

A philosophical zombie or p-zombie in the philosophy of mind and perception is a hypothetical being that is indistinguishable from a normal human being except in that it lacks conscious experience, qualia, or sentience.[1] For example, a philosophical zombie could be poked with a sharp object and not feel any pain sensation, but yet behave exactly as if it does feel pain (it may say "ouch" and recoil from the stimulus, or say that it is in intense pain).

The notion of a philosophical zombie is used mainly in thought experiments intended to support arguments (often called "zombie arguments") against forms of physicalism such as materialism, behaviorism and functionalism. Physicalism is the idea that all aspects of human nature can be explained by physical means: specifically, all aspects of human nature and perception can be explained from a neurobiological standpoint. Some philosophers, like David Chalmers, argue that since a zombie is defined as physiologically indistinguishable from human beings, even its logical possibility would be a sound refutation of physicalism.[2] However, physicalists like Daniel Dennett counter that Chalmers's physiological zombies are logically incoherent and thus impossible.[3][4]

ken
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Re: What is the use of self?

Post by ken » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:30 am

bahman wrote:
ken wrote:
bahman wrote: We know that any system is functional if it does X by receiving Y, where X is a set of actions (output) and Y is a set of stimulus (input). The question is what is the use of self if the system, human for example, can function without it?
But how could a human being exist without input?

If a human body did not have any of the five senses, which is what allows Y (input), then would it be anything much more than just a lump of meat, with organs, for lack of a better name?

How could a human body function without Y? What could it actually do?
We are questioning self and not input.
But I asked you if a "self" could function without input?

I think it can not. But if you can show Me how it can, then what i think is right will be wrong, and then I can not look at the issue of 'use'.

What the use of a functioning self is obvious, to Me, but as far as I can now see a self (with little s) can not function without input.

Again,
How could a human body and/or self function without Y? What could it actually do?

Dontaskme
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Re: What is the use of self?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:48 am

bahman wrote:We know that any system is functional if it does X by receiving Y, where X is a set of actions (output) and Y is a set of stimulus (input). The question is what is the use of self if the system, human for example, can function without it?
The Self cannot even enter the equation ...Self doesn't need to. Self is already every function. Every function is animated by Self.

There has to be Y for there to be X ...no Y...no X

There can be Y (non-functioning) without X (functioning) ...but there cannot be X (functioning) without Y (non-functioning)

Y = Self =(input)

X = Shadow of Self = (output)

_________

Dont ask me....(scratch head!) ...I'm just making it all up.. like every one else does. :mrgreen:

Dontaskme
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Re: What is the use of self?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:02 am

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.







The intellectual function is an example of a function of being human. The narration that is in your head is a GREAT example of how the intellectual function works. The words you type here is a reflection of your intellectual function.


Consciousness, in ALL of it's various forms is an example of state of being. One's consciousness just is. Consciousness alone does not perform any function itself. Although some individuals believe that we, to some degree, are able to affect our states of consciousness.


Hope that helps.












.
Great post. Loved it.

''We like to think we can affect our states of consciousness''.... :lol:

First we'd have to find it, can you imagine, the contents of consciousness searching around consciousness looking for consciousness. ROFLMAO

Dontaskme
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Re: What is the use of self?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:16 am

bahman wrote:
Can you give me an example of an activity that you don't function?
There is no functioning you. And yet functioning cannot function without you. Therefore you are one with the function. But the you is a reaction.

Dontaskme
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Re: What is the use of self?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:26 am

bahman wrote:
No. Self is simply what you are. You in fact experience your self (existence) indirectly through consciousness by experiencing your actions.
The Self is a fiction..let me explain why...

You can't experience your own actions. You is a reaction. There are no actions in reality. It takes an action-man to have a reaction...in the sense it takes the presence of a shadow to know the presence of a sun. The sun is with or without a shadow but a shadow is wholly dependant on the sun. We know the sun is without doubt by the sheer presence of the shadow.

A reaction is the action...(fiction) The shadow is the sun.(fiction)

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bahman
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Re: What is the use of self?

Post by bahman » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:34 pm

Ginkgo wrote:
bahman wrote: We know that any system is functional if it does X by receiving Y, where X is a set of actions (output) and Y is a set of stimulus (input). The question is what is the use of self if the system, human for example, can function without it?
It can't, otherwise we would be philosophical zombies.

Philosophical zombie
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Zombie (disambiguation).

A philosophical zombie or p-zombie in the philosophy of mind and perception is a hypothetical being that is indistinguishable from a normal human being except in that it lacks conscious experience, qualia, or sentience.[1] For example, a philosophical zombie could be poked with a sharp object and not feel any pain sensation, but yet behave exactly as if it does feel pain (it may say "ouch" and recoil from the stimulus, or say that it is in intense pain).

The notion of a philosophical zombie is used mainly in thought experiments intended to support arguments (often called "zombie arguments") against forms of physicalism such as materialism, behaviorism and functionalism. Physicalism is the idea that all aspects of human nature can be explained by physical means: specifically, all aspects of human nature and perception can be explained from a neurobiological standpoint. Some philosophers, like David Chalmers, argue that since a zombie is defined as physiologically indistinguishable from human beings, even its logical possibility would be a sound refutation of physicalism.[2] However, physicalists like Daniel Dennett counter that Chalmers's physiological zombies are logically incoherent and thus impossible.[3][4]
Philosophical zombie refers to being which cannot experience anything. Here we are talking about being who don't have self.

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