''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

So what's really going on?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 4073
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:23 am

Impenitent wrote:quick, hide the donut holes...

-Imp
Any description of a donut hole has to be about the donut. :D

But without the hole there is no donut. :D

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 4073
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:24 am

Beauty wrote:Dontaskme, when you say, ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE, do you mean that an essay written and deleted is the same one? It is definitely, but in one scenario it is there and in another it is not there. And here, situation there and situation not there is not the same one - not the same situation.
The essay written and deleted are in the same moment IN life. The essay could not have been written if it hadn't already had the potential to exist in the first place. The essay couldn't have been deleted if there wasn't no where for it to go. But the essay hasn't gone anywhere, it's always here now or nowhere.
Nothing or Emptiness is the first place holder of Everything. The deleted essay hasn't gone anywhere, because there is ONLY here.
The first place is the infinite field of potential aka 'latent energy' ..Secondly, the essay appears from within what was first a latent situation... changing into a movement from latent to kinetic energy. And this is all happening as ONE UNITARY ACTION.
The apparent opposites ''here'' and ''not here'' must exist simultaneously in the same place .. which is always HERE...for anything to happen/appear in the first place.


It's the same with Everything in life. Every thing is here and not here at the same time. ( A rainbow can appear but the actual location of the rainbow can never be found) ... any attempt to approach a rainbow - will see it disappear.

See how the phrase ... '' Never Not Here '' can read both ways which sum to zero. It can read nothing is ever here. Also read as everything is always here.
Existence could not be known without it's opposite non-existence.

Nonduality does not mean the absence of duality ..it simply gives meaning to duality.
Duality is both non &duality at the same time. Duality is all there IS...simply because duality cannot not exist.

I understand that nondual thinking can be rather confusing, but is always worth the effort to understand it, especially once the penny drops. That's why the Buddha laughed and not to forget the laughing Jesus....LOL

Image

Beauty
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:08 pm

Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Beauty » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:33 am

Dontaskme,
You say, The deleted essay hasn't gone anywhere, because there is ONLY here.
I agree as to your point that the here and not here is still within the sphere of the now and here. But still, the point is that for distinguishing between what is here and not here, we consider what is not here as not being present in the now. But yes, in the big picture of things to be, the thing here and not here is all still here as you say because we only have the here with us, so like the essay deleted could only be lost here. But your title of the thread is not saying that, it is saying that, ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE, it is not saying that they are both in the now and here, it is saying that they are both the same situations/outcomes, which they are not, or what is the discussion about? I can prove what I say is right because when you say something, according to you that means nothing and vice versa so that is clearly not true, because both nothing and something would lose meaning, but they both stand ABSOLUTE, being opposites, so no confusions can arise in the face of opposites. I don't have an opposite and could be ever changing in this regard or that, so I am not ABSOLUTE, but if I had an exact opposite, I would immediately become ABSOLUTE - absolutely defined. Now, being absolutes - something and nothing are not the same and we know they are opposites. I think I made my point. You could call my reasoning cyclic reasoning, but I have seen that cyclic reasoning in so much as it does not have a valid premise, it still does help explain a point. And because the issue here is to understand the point, then the reasoning is alright to use. You may argue the fact that both something and nothing are with us in the here and now, in the sense of a pen here today gone tomorrow(outdated, out of circulation), but then are dark and light, yes and no, up and down, right and wrong, holy and unholy etc. both not with us in the here and now? They are, and they stand ABSOLUTE, clearly defined and are not the same. Yet, if everything came from nothing and goes back there, then on that premise we can say that something and nothing are the same, but being in the now and here, and while here we only have here, then they both need to be distinguished for the here, otherwise no talk, communication, conversation, discussion, argument, philosophy is possible.

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 4073
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:34 am

Beauty wrote:Dontaskme,
You say, The deleted essay hasn't gone anywhere, because there is ONLY here.
I agree as to your point that the here and not here is still within the sphere of the now and here. But still, the point is that for distinguishing between what is here and not here, we consider what is not here as not being present in the now. But yes, in the big picture of things to be, the thing here and not here is all still here as you say because we only have the here with us, so like the essay deleted could only be lost here. But your title of the thread is not saying that, it is saying that, ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE, it is not saying that they are both in the now and here, it is saying that they are both the same situations/outcomes, which they are not, or what is the discussion about?
The discussion is about nonduality which means not two.


''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE is saying all definitions / interpretations / descriptions of ''What Is'' are here NOW.

The NOW is THIS immediate ONE LOVE in action dreaming difference where there is none.

The ''What Is'' or 'ISness' is always and ever the same whether is it identified or not. Only as THIS is defined by no one does IS-ness appear different. The concept 'Nothing' can be described as IS-ness without definition, while the concept 'Something' can be described as having definition...Both definitions make their appearances from the same source so they are the same only appearing different.
Opposites have to be IN the same moment else a distinction wouldn't be possible, but no one other than oneness itself is making that distinction. The distinction is arising from within itself.Don't forget these are all 'concepts' we are using to describe what is essentially NO THING except in this conception. Reality is inconceivable and yet at the same time is conceived via concept. True reality is a prior existing non-conceptual ISness of which nothing is known.

All knowing arises within itself 'One with the Knowing'. So then how could ONE THING exist, how could one know it's one?...enter the 'concept' ..but a concept is a fiction, it's not IT and yet IT is IT at the same time... since concepts are what define undefined reality.

Reality is basically unknowable except what is imagined, made-up, or conceptualised by 'No OneThing' until it appears as a fictional story as a 'Some One Thing'....APPEARANCES are inseparable from what they are appearing in or from or to...it's all the same ONENESS.



Beauty wrote: I can prove what I say is right because when you say something, according to you that means nothing and vice versa so that is clearly not true, because both nothing and something would lose meaning, but they both stand ABSOLUTE, being opposites, so no confusions can arise in the face of opposites. I don't have an opposite and could be ever changing in this regard or that, so I am not ABSOLUTE, but if I had an exact opposite, I would immediately become ABSOLUTE - absolutely defined. Now, being absolutes - something and nothing are not the same and we know they are opposites. I think I made my point. You could call my reasoning cyclic reasoning, but I have seen that cyclic reasoning in so much as it does not have a valid premise, it still does help explain a point. And because the issue here is to understand the point, then the reasoning is alright to use. You may argue the fact that both something and nothing are with us in the here and now, in the sense of a pen here today gone tomorrow(outdated, out of circulation), but then are dark and light, yes and no, up and down, right and wrong, holy and unholy etc. both not with us in the here and now? They are, and they stand ABSOLUTE, clearly defined and are not the same. Yet, if everything came from nothing and goes back there, then on that premise we can say that something and nothing are the same, but being in the now and here, and while here we only have here, then they both need to be distinguished for the here, otherwise no talk, communication, conversation, discussion, argument, philosophy is possible.
Things/ideas, concepts, thoughts, are not the same only in the sense of their specific meanings attached. But they're all made from the same one substance and have their being from the one same source. The concept 'meaning' is known instantly as it arises one with the knowing...AS a concurrent phenomena appearing always now. No person or any other living thing or creature knows ...every thing is already the known else it couldn't be.

Talk, communication, conversation, discussion, argument, philosophy is possible because that's what's happening - it happens but to no thing is this happening happening to, therefore it's happening and not happening at the same time. It's all Oneness appearing as the many. And that is the ABSOLUTE here now.

The Absolute can never be known, all knowing is relative /fictional...already HERE NOW as the ABSOLUTE KNOWN..becoming known as and when it arises/appears in conjunction.

Beauty
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:08 pm

Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Beauty » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:19 am

Dontaskme you say, No person or any other living thing or creature knows ...every thing is already the known else it couldn't be.
So you are saying that all knowledge is already known, right? in the sense that no more is being made, created, synthesized, but is already there existent in some mega database, let's say of nature. But as life progresses, synthesis, analysis and so forth will always be there, and there is virtually no way that the way I synthesize and analyze and what I synthesize and analyze could already be there, it is only logical to believe so. I also wanted to say that it seems that nature's database is ever non-exhaustive, which is why life is always progressing or how could it? Also, nature's database of information is in such a way as to be infinite I believe. So if that is not true then what in Heaven's name does infinity mean to you? I believe that nature's database is ever non-exhaustive because it is infinite, and so everything is not already known, but we make knowledge as we go.
Last edited by Beauty on Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Beauty
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:08 pm

Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Beauty » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:40 am

Dontaskme you say, Nothing or Emptiness is the first place holder of Everything. The deleted essay hasn't gone anywhere, because there is ONLY here.

You have a very solid point mind you but you forget ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE, so nothing or emptiness is not the first place holder of everything, something or fullness is the first place holder of everything! :D
And the deleted essay has gone somewhere, because there is also there. :D
And so my point is that even though everything might have arised from nothing, but for the sake of understanding we must keep absolute/opposite definitions as such.

Beauty
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:08 pm

Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Beauty » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:09 am

Dontaskme you say, ...it's all the same ONENESS., and then you also say, The Absolute can never be known.

How? Is that Oneness not absolute, if not, then what else is there? Because it would be standing absolute.

Look, good and bad is not the same thing, right and wrong is not the same thing, good and evil is not the same thing otherwise God and Devil is the same being. Now where we can keep two faces and so we are simultaneously good and bad, and we are the same one, but good people and bad people in the same world are not the same people. So where, we all might come from nothing and nowhere, and all this in our world is the same thing really and is nothing/nowhere due to coming from it, but while in the here and now, the definitions are concrete, so much, as to say ABSOLUTE. This way discussion is possible, life and living is possible because we have a name for everything, we have a solid/concrete/absolute definition for everything.

Now, if you still don't agree to what I say, then I will say this - It's all the different uniqueness, the absolute can always be known, the oneness is manyness. Is it not? Moreover, if we can say that we came from nothing/nowhere, we can also say that nothing/nowhere came from us, the reason is that if we can come from nothing, then contained in nothing, nothing will be contained in us, and so nothing/nowhere we can say came from us. If you say for we contained in nothing, nothing cannot be contained in us, then we going back to nothing is nothing not in us? What I am saying is this - We come from nothing, nothing comes from us. So if we are contained in nothing, nothing is contained in us. Also if nothing was not contained in us, then we would not be contained in nothing. But that is not true, so nothing contains us, and we contain nothing. This is why existence is there and non-existence is also there. Because, we contained in nothing, coming up, and going back, nothing contained in us.

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 4073
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:44 am

Beauty wrote:Dontaskme you say, No person or any other living thing or creature knows ...every thing is already the known else it couldn't be.
So you are saying that all knowledge is already known, right? in the sense that no more is being made, created, synthesized, but is already there existent in some mega database, let's say of nature. But as life progresses, synthesis, analysis and so forth will always be there, and there is virtually no way that the way I synthesize and analyze and what I synthesize and analyze could already be there, it is only logical to believe so. I also wanted to say that it seems that nature's database is ever non-exhaustive, which is why life is always progressing or how could it? Also, nature's database of information is in such a way as to be infinite I believe. So if that is not true then what in Heaven's name does infinity mean to you? I believe that nature's database if ever non-exhaustive because it is infinite, and so everything is not already known, but we make knowledge as we go.
You are what you are doing right NOW. You are Life. This immediate moment is the only place that EXISTS. The past is dead and the future hasn't happened, so in truth the future never comes and the past cannot exist. Life is one unitary continuous flow appearing infinitely for eternity NOW without beginning nor end.
HERE NOW ..no thinker, no experiencer, no knower and no doer can exist.
HERE NOW ..there is only 'thinking' ''knowing' 'experiencing' and 'doing' happening all by itself...if no one is doing life, then life is a fiction for no one.

All knowledge is illusory/ a conceptual fiction.

To say a concept ie a 'human' is doing life is like saying a 'screwdriver' is doing life. Life does itself.

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 4073
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:40 am

Beauty wrote:Dontaskme you say, Nothing or Emptiness is the first place holder of Everything. The deleted essay hasn't gone anywhere, because there is ONLY here.

You have a very solid point mind you but you forget ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE, so nothing or emptiness is not the first place holder of everything, something or fullness is the first place holder of everything! :D
Well it kinda works both ways like a two way mirror. Since they are the same One.

Ultimately emptiness is the placeholder for something because they are conjoined twins.
Every thing is actually no thing appearing as something and disappearing back to no thing. Things only appear to be things...things are an illusory show of light. In the same context the images on a computer screen only appear when electricity which is light is present. When the images appear so does the light in the same instance.

Can the emptiness ever show itself if it is veiled by something? No it can't. Only when light is present is any thing seen, but the light itself cannot be seen, only that which is reflects as seen.


Something can only show, because there is something that is the placeholder, and that is empty light, it is the no thing in which the something appears...any thing seen is an illusory appearance since the seer cannot be seen, only that which is seen can appear, the light does not appear because light is the appearance.

It's a very convincing illusion as well. And is why life is pure beauty in and of itself. One must stand in awe to be part of such miraculous beauty.


Beauty wrote:And the deleted essay has gone somewhere, because there is also there. :D
The deleted essay has only gone somewhere in the knowledge there is somewhere for it to go. And since knowledge is a fiction the essay has in fact gone nowhere and it's existence was a mere appearance of that nowhere.

Beauty wrote:And so my point is that even though everything might have arised from nothing, but for the sake of understanding we must keep absolute/opposite definitions as such.
Yes of course, the illusion is simply kept alive as one illusion is continually replaced by another, so the apparent continuity of the illusion can appear never ending.

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 4073
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:00 pm

Beauty wrote:Dontaskme you say, ...it's all the same ONENESS., and then you also say, The Absolute can never be known.

How? Is that Oneness not absolute, if not, then what else is there? Because it would be standing absolute.
I'm saying the ABSOLUTE can never be known because we are the absolute right here now. Anything known is purely relative .. ANY THING known is a fiction. We can never know the ABSOLUTE because we ARE the ABSOLUTE ...it is known absolutely that we exist...but that's all that's known, it's not known who or what is existing or why...if a who or what or why is known then that kind of knowing is a fiction.

Knowing the absolute would require another knower existing outside of itself. There is no other knower existing outside or inside this already known existence ...where is inside or outside of what's already right here now existing? ...approach this and there is no beginning, follow this and there is no end.There is ONLY here now.There is no fundamental reality outside of you. There is none inside of you either.

User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 1488
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Terrapin Station » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:48 pm

Flash and bam are both alakazam under an orange-colored sky.

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 4073
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:30 pm

Beauty wrote: I believe that nature's database is ever non-exhaustive because it is infinite, and so everything is not already known, but we make knowledge as we go.
I just want to come back to this point you've made above.

Every thing is known - but things are not known by the things known...because all knowing is the subjective - objectifying itself. An object cannot know anything since it only exists as a subjective idea, therefore the object is a fiction.


A human body is known but not by the human. The human is a fictional character, it is an object/an idea apparently arising now here as and through this body mind mechanism. There is no person in the body, the person is just an idea. A body is conceived but only as a conceptual idea arising in it, how and why the conception appears cannot be known by the body because it would have to have been there at the moment of it's conception which would require two..a knower and the known...but here now both the knower and known are one in the same conception which never actually happened except as an idea arising only and ever now in the moment.

The body is it's own intelligence, it knows how to live and function... it knows how to breath, and take in oxygen from the external and pump it around the internal. It takes oxygen from the non-sentient life forms external to it and then breathes that out as carbon dioxide essential to sustain the plant life in order that it gives oxygen. It's a self sustaining feedback loop. But the body does not know it knows. It knows without knowing.

Things are simply known by no thing. Therefore fictional.

Beauty
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:08 pm

Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Beauty » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:41 am

Dontaskme you say, Nonduality does not mean the absence of duality ..it simply gives meaning to duality.
Duality is both non &duality at the same time. Duality is all there IS...simply because duality cannot not exist.


You also say, The discussion is about nonduality which means not two.

What I am saying is this - duality cannot be both non-duality and duality at the same time, for by definition we are calling it just duality. So duality is only duality at a point in time. Now this duality is not here, for you say that the discussion is about non-duality which means not two but ONE. From nothing is something and back to nothing, so at a point in time we have only one, nothing or something. But, in so much as we are contained in nothing and nothing contained in us (I already proved so earlier based on the premise that existence is from nothing into being something and back to nothing), so the existing non-duality is duality simultaneously, which is why here today, gone tomorrow is there but not at the same point in time, existence, non-existence is there but not at the same point in time. That is all.

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 4073
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:26 am

Beauty wrote:Dontaskme you say, Nonduality does not mean the absence of duality ..it simply gives meaning to duality.
Duality is both non &duality at the same time. Duality is all there IS...simply because duality cannot not exist.


You also say, The discussion is about nonduality which means not two.

What I am saying is this - duality cannot be both non-duality and duality at the same time, for by definition we are calling it just duality. So duality is only duality at a point in time.
I hear what you are saying, but Nonduality is something that goes beyond all of these mind-made opposites. There are no opposites in reality. Nonduality is pointing to life as it is right now, before the appearance of opposites, ie: concepts and labels of past and future, right and wrong etc... What is life before thought? Is it possible to capture Nonduality into words without simultaneously creating the opposite?
Beauty wrote:Now this duality is not here, for you say that the discussion is about non-duality which means not two but ONE. From nothing is something and back to nothing, so at a point in time we have only one, nothing or something. But, in so much as we are contained in nothing and nothing contained in us (I already proved so earlier based on the premise that existence is from nothing into being something and back to nothing), so the existing non-duality is duality simultaneously, which is why here today, gone tomorrow is there but not at the same point in time, existence, non-existence is there but not at the same point in time. That is all.
I think we agree on that.

But existence, non-existence not at the same time is just a thought. Nonduality is this immediate now prior to any thought about it, it's not in time, time is a mental construct appearing in it. It's a fictional overlay on what is already the timeless now.

Beauty
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:08 pm

Re: ''Something'' and ''Nothing'' are the same ONE

Post by Beauty » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:43 am

Existence non-existence there, but not at the same point in time is a reality not just a thought. Time depends on development, things happening, but when I am resting even then time is flowing. So time is forever existent and it would have come up with nothing, being a part of that, but that being nothing it would not be there, so time would have come up in the process of something coming up.

I believe that we all came up (our spirit) from nothing. When we make things we start from scratch and then we have something, even though the constituent elements have always been there, for energy cannot be created nor destroyed on our world earth. We coming up from nothing then would defy the law of conservation of energy as we would emerge from nothing into becoming something, so we would emerge outside of this world of ours, wherein energy can be created and destroyed. If energy could not be created nor destroyed, how would be come from nothing into being something? So that would have to be there that conservation of energy is not there. Now, because conservation of energy is not there in the world above, that is why to be good becomes all the more important, or the wicked spirits could just annihilate us into nothing. So then we understand this whole issue of - be a good girl, be a good boy as scripture suggests. And we also understand the issue of "fallen" and "risen." If the law prevalent in the world above was not there, all the good spirits would be gone, only the wicked would remain. But the law being there and being - your action - your consequence - your fate, then justice is done to everyone. Spirit is energy. Remember spirited?

Have you ever considered the fact that nothing existing, then prior to that if something's not there, how would you define it? You couldn't. As such, while nothing is there, something's not there and vice-versa. Also, spirit's coming would also be as quarks - spiritual quarks showing spiritual properties. Also, something and nothing both are absolutes and both are opposites so both cannot exist at the same time except as subsets or in the abstract in the sense that pen, here today gone tomorrow and yet its elements there in the environment, thereby satisfying that fact that we coming from nothing, then we are contained in nothing, and we going into nothing, then nothing coming from us, so nothing is contained in us.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests