The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

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Dalek Prime
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dalek Prime » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:54 am

Heck, how did I miss this? Anyway, you're doing a fine job Dubious. Ta!

Dubious
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dubious » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 am
So I'm guessing that you don't think it's possible to be in touch with, and/or communicate with, "spirits" who have passed... or anything else without a physical body and a brain, yes?
Dubious wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am
It’s logical to think that a “possibility” would occasionally manifest as a reality. Do you know of any instances when the dead and the living have communicated?
Lacewing wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:09 pm
If communication between the dead and the living is possible, then the "dead" would be aware in SOME WAY (in order to have communication, right?)... even if it were a different awareness than those in bodies.
One problem with this, as I see it, is that one can append an “IF” to almost any argument to make it seem viable. The dead, as you say, would be aware in “some way” retaining their identity as humans having lived, to communicate with the living. A simple “if”, however, doesn’t preempt the question of whether a certified instance of any such type of communication ever took place.
Lacewing wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:09 pm
As we both surely know, there have been and are countless people throughout our entire history who claim to have experienced other-worldly entities/communications. Even if only one of those was true, that would suggest that the universe (including ourselves) does not revolve around (nor is limited to) human brains. :D
There is no doubt countless claims have been and will continue being made. The problem resides in defining the source and the ONLY sure evidence of that is the convoluted piece of meat crammed into our craniums.

To explain those mysteries we tend to make “if” statements denoting possibilities never consummated and further prevent coming to terms with the real source of those mystical feelings...the lowly, meaty brain; yet when of some part of its chemistry screws up, not at all uncommon, we hear voices, see things, etc., outside of ourselves that are super-real to the perceiver. Such are usually temporary perhaps caused by anxiety; if not they are normally cured by medication as those countless people would have been if the cure or its alleviation had been available.
Lacewing wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:09 pm
And, yes, I have experienced similar for myself, although it hasn't been "between the dead and the living"... rather, I've experienced energy and awareness beyond my own physical form... and it seemed perfectly natural at the time. Even though I wasn't expecting it to happen, when it did, I naturally "shifted" into tune with it. In each of those (sober) moments, it was simply an expansion of reality... additional frequencies open to see! It made sense.
I would never argue against these experiences having had a few of my own; “shifting into tune with it” is precisely the right thing to do...and while they do make sense on there own level, there’s always a bit that doesn’t. Like dreams they can be stunning in their total disregard of logic; the content so eccentric beyond any “conscious” limit that we’re used to, that I often wondered how alien the brain can be when something so separate from me can present itself in that way...and yet while dreaming, it all makes sense!

The great mystery, as I see it, is what the mental material in our skulls is capable of as already experienced; it does not apply to some other-worldly after-death state forever qualified by if statements.
Lacewing wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 am
Haven't there been experiments showing that there are brainless forms of life (plants, perhaps) that have awareness?
Dubious wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am
I think you’re conflating biological sensitivities with consciousness.
Lacewing wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 am
I'm just suggesting that there are more levels of awareness than what WE identify as awareness... since we tend to define everything based on ourselves. Does that seem far-fetched to you?
As already implied, even on a physical basis, the “I” already contains more than what we can know about ourselves with the ability to extend itself beyond what consciousness normally mandates. Conversely an awareness separate from the brain which achieves escape velocity after its decease makes no sense at all.
Lacewing wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 am
I'm suggesting that the brain's awareness is not the only kind of awareness. When people experience other kinds of awareness -- that go beyond what the brain could know -- doesn't that demonstrate that we are not ONLY these bodies?
Dubious wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am
Does the butterfly know that it used to be a caterpillar or is it only aware (if one can use that word) of being one or the other in spite of its metamorphosis.
Lacewing wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 am
Okay, now you're being ridiculous. 8) There is no reason for the butterfly to keep track or define such things.
It was only a metaphor which I should have made more explicit. The point of it was even if something of you carries forward, I could only imagine it as an anonymous entity without any knowledge of its former physical existence. Whatever of you gets transferred would exist in an entirely new being making your current state a single event in which nothing follows once defunct. As a unique being with its memories and history, you’re dead either way.
Dubious wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am
Just because humans can experience mystical states, “going beyond what the brain could know”, in no way precludes the brain from having initiated the experience.
Lacewing wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 am
So... just to reason this out... how is it that people suddenly experience or know something that is BEYOND the scope of their experience and knowledge? How can the meaty brain do that?
Good question! which can also be reversed. If not the meaty brain, then what’s doing it? Intuition is a very potent function of survival. It’s not unusual for the human brain, especially among those more endowed, to synthesize seemingly disconnected events into moments of single insight. Neither is it unusual to have this knowledge conveyed in dreams. Should this infer that such abstractions must exceed the messy sponge that seems to be doing it?
Dubious wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am
Where else would it have come from. Awareness can breed sensations which seem ultra-real to the brain and the best it can do is to simply experience it...while it can.
Lacewing wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 am
The implications for me, of beyond-the-brain awareness, are that the meaty brain is just a receptive computer for the Universal operating system... and WE are part of the operating system, NOT JUST the computer mechanism... which is why we would have access to more than the limited functionality and life of the mechanical computer. The operating system is a highly complex and evolving language driving all to greater and greater efficiency and functioning, so the mechanical computer brain's definitions are limited if it only uploads information. It needs to stay connected online once in awhile to download broader functionality. :D What do you think?
It’s a good metaphor if I understand you correctly. But if the computer (meaty brain) goes down due, let’s say, to a mother board failure what happens to the Universal operating system it hosted? It still exists in other online computers but not in yours. Your computer and whatever operating system and data it hosted goes into oblivion. What remains is only the raw material, parts of which may be reused!

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Lacewing
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Lacewing » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:04 pm

Dubious wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm
The dead, as you say, would be aware in “some way” retaining their identity as humans having lived, to communicate with the living.
I didn't say anything about retaining an identity. Communication does not require an identity. Look at all the things in nature that communicate without identities.
Dubious wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm
To explain those mysteries we tend to make “if” statements denoting possibilities never consummated and further prevent coming to terms with the real source of those mystical feelings...the lowly, meaty brain
Are there answers for how the brain could do such things beyond its experience? How are you able to conclude that you are "coming to terms with the real source" when there is so much that is unanswered? Or are you simply concluding ALL THAT IS because you DON'T KNOW what ELSE there IS? :)
Dubious wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm
yet when of some part of its chemistry screws up, not at all uncommon, we hear voices, see things, etc., outside of ourselves that are super-real to the perceiver. Such are usually temporary perhaps caused by anxiety; if not they are normally cured by medication as those countless people would have been if the cure or its alleviation had been available.
Such capabilities and disorders of the brain do not explain or invalidate what we're talking about.
Dubious wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm
I would never argue against these experiences having had a few of my own; “shifting into tune with it” is precisely the right thing to do...
Nice to hear you say that. Some people might dismiss or resist it... as a lot of humankind tends to do with nature. And I think that's why we miss stuff. The brain wants to rule and define EVERYTHING... and, by doing so, lives in its own creation, detached from the Universal power/energy that flows through all naturally.
Dubious wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm
...while they do make sense on there own level, there’s always a bit that doesn’t.
It can seem that way... but I suspect that's due to the brain trying to superimpose itself (judging and control muddies things). My experiences have made MORE SENSE than anything of this human world. Crystal clarity without agenda. No reason to resist being in this human world... just play and explore.
Dubious wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm
Like dreams they can be stunning in their total disregard of logic
Logic is of the brain... which is why that which is beyond the brain doesn't NEED such condensed logic. Nature flows... it doesn't entertain itself with logic as we humans do. I love logic! But I can let go of it in a second... because of my experiences beyond it.
Dubious wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am
if something of you carries forward, I could only imagine it as an anonymous entity without any knowledge of its former physical existence.
What about being aware of that existence, but not being identified with it? Like you would feel if you played a role on a stage for a period of time. You performed as that, but you were not that.
Dubious wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am
It’s not unusual for the human brain, especially among those more endowed, to synthesize seemingly disconnected events into moments of single insight. Neither is it unusual to have this knowledge conveyed in dreams. Should this infer that such abstractions must exceed the messy sponge that seems to be doing it?
If the information is completely beyond the experience of the brain (even as disconnected events), yet the information suddenly comes into the brain, then yes that seems worth considering that the brain is just a transmitter/organizer for something more.
Dubious wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am
if the computer (meaty brain) goes down due, let’s say, to a mother board failure what happens to the Universal operating system it hosted?
Then the computer cannot receive/process any input. The computer dies.
Dubious wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am
It still exists in other online computers but not in yours. Your computer and whatever operating system and data it hosted goes into oblivion.
You are identifying yourself as the computer, yes? I'm suggesting that the computer is only a vessel. You are actually the operating system. That's what I'm asking you to consider. As long as you keep identifying yourself as a brain and a body and that's it, we will be unable to explain how it is that human beings can suddenly tap into awareness that is beyond their human experience. A brain can't do that by itself. But the essence flowing through it -- you -- can.

This is no more unreasonable to consider than thinking that you are a brain. :)

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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dubious » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:17 am

Dubious wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm
The dead, as you say, would be aware in “some way” retaining their identity as humans having lived, to communicate with the living.
Lacewing wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:04 pm
I didn't say anything about retaining an identity. Communication does not require an identity. Look at all the things in nature that communicate without identities.
If there is no residual identity remaining, how would a person that died communicate with one that’s living. What would there be to communicate with?
Lacewing wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:04 pm
Are there answers for how the brain could do such things beyond its experience?
Does the lack of answers prevent the brain from doing it anyways? If everything worked based on our complete understanding of it, there would be precious little that worked.
Lacewing wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:04 pm
Such capabilities and disorders of the brain do not explain or invalidate what we're talking about.
Perhaps not! But neither can brain malfunctions, of which there are many, be ruled out as factors invariably investigated as the first cause.
Dubious wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm
Like dreams they can be stunning in their total disregard of logic
Lacewing wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:04 pm
Logic is of the brain... which is why that which is beyond the brain doesn't NEED such condensed logic.
No! Logic is NOT of the brain, it is a PART of the brain and likely not even the biggest part. Logic through generations had to be disciplined into the brain. Not least, sleeping & dreaming are physiological necessities of the brain. If you can’t sleep or dream you’ll first go insane and then you’ll die.
Dubious wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am
if something of you carries forward, I could only imagine it as an anonymous entity without any knowledge of its former physical existence.
Lacewing wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:04 pm
What about being aware of that existence, but not being identified with it? Like you would feel if you played a role on a stage for a period of time. You performed as that, but you were not that.
The critical difference here is that the actor in order to act is alive and therefore knows the difference. In your scenario, the acting is carried forward to where it no-longer belongs.
Dubious wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am
It still exists in other online computers but not in yours. Your computer and whatever operating system and data it hosted goes into oblivion.
All very well, but if the computer – vessel, meaty brain, or whatever you want to call it – goes down then so does everything it hosts including operating system and possibly even the BIOS. If I’m misconstruing your meaning then you’ll have to explain it better or maybe supply a better metaphor.

Since we both defended our positions reasonably well, why not just agree to disagree? :)

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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Lacewing » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:22 am

Dubious wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:17 am
Since we both defended our positions reasonably well, why not just agree to disagree? :)
Thanks! Upon reading through your response, I was thinking of suggesting the same thing.

Dubious
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dubious » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:16 am

Dalek Prime wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:54 am
Heck, how did I miss this? Anyway, you're doing a fine job Dubious. Ta!
Only doing it to keep my mental apparatus lubricated...which I noticed isn't rust proof...and for no other reason. Best part is, it works even when I screw-up...which happens so seldom! :lol:

Dalek Prime
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dalek Prime » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:08 am

Dubious wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:16 am
Dalek Prime wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:54 am
Heck, how did I miss this? Anyway, you're doing a fine job Dubious. Ta!
Only doing it to keep my mental apparatus lubricated...which I noticed isn't rust proof...and for no other reason. Best part is, it works even when I screw-up...which happens so seldom! :lol:
Hey, your reasons are your business. 8)

1x0
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by 1x0 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:10 pm

I agree. Absolute nothing cannot be ever since anything exist.

"The null hypothesis is that nothing, zero is a physical reality based mathematical conception which we can perceive as an energy, matter, information, space, time free state. Revealing as our common physical, mathematical, philosophical origin, a physical reality based mathematical reference point. I state that in proportion to this physical reality based sense(conception) everything has some kind of mathematically expressible value. Space, time, information, energy, matter.

The hypothesis is based on the fact that space expands and time evolves which points that our current moment is bigger(more*) than the moment before. Following this path backward on the timeline of the physical reality we arrive to the lowest possible physical state, which I perceive as a space(time), energy, matter, information-free state. 0. In proportion to this state, everything has value. Everything has mathematically expressible value. Space, time, energy, matter and information. " - tlz

*at least on the level of information about its existence (Time)

Dawid
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dawid » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:42 am

I'm not very good with math

"Okay, now given that you have 10 cups with the random possibility of each cup having as many as 10 coins in it, what is the possibility that you have the same number of coins in all 10 cups?

Mathematically that would be (1/10)^10 or 0.0000000001."

How did we get to the number of 10 cups and 10 coins?

I am wondering though, if I have 10 sweets in my hand and eat them all, how many do i have left in my hand? Surely that leaves absolutely none... unless we're counting particles of sweet, but then surely we look at what a 'sweet' is... :|

AlexW
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by AlexW » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:30 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:41 am
Nothingness cannot be known...Except in relation to Everything.

What is Everything?.... cannot be known either, except as concept, as language is dual by nature.

The paradox of duality is unavoidable, as the concept of oneness is inconceivable.
Nothing and everything are the same - just like zero and infinity are the same. These concepts make no sense in duality (but we use them anyway).
I agree, that the concept of oneness is inconceivable. But: Oneness itself IS conceivable.
Taking this a step further we find that this is true for all concepts. Even the concept of tree is (in reality) inconceivable as all we really know is undivided truth/reality... but by covering it up with a conceptual, objective map of separation we actually believe there is a separate self that experiences external objects (which we never actually do).

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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:09 am

AlexW wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:30 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:41 am
Nothingness cannot be known...Except in relation to Everything.

What is Everything?.... cannot be known either, except as concept, as language is dual by nature.

The paradox of duality is unavoidable, as the concept of oneness is inconceivable.
Nothing and everything are the same - just like zero and infinity are the same. These concepts make no sense in duality (but we use them anyway).
I agree, that the concept of oneness is inconceivable. But: Oneness itself IS conceivable.
Taking this a step further we find that this is true for all concepts. Even the concept of tree is (in reality) inconceivable as all we really know is undivided truth/reality... but by covering it up with a conceptual, objective map of separation we actually believe there is a separate self that experiences external objects (which we never actually do).
Hello AlexW...sorry I've only just realised you'd replied to me, even though you replied 12 days ago. I'm only just seeing it.
I agree with you, nothing and everything are the same, they only differ in context put there by knowledge, language, interpretation etc..

Oneness is conceivable in the context it is conceived by language, oneness becomes known within the experience of being it. . although it is not an experience, the experience is an 'appearance' in it...a feeling or sensation so to speak, but it's only oneness itself experiencing the feeling and sensation so it's a phantom.

What I mean by that is without knowledge - nothing would be conceiving of itself, so knowing you know is a mental phenomena, an appearance within itself. There has to be something for an appearance to arise in, that something is nothing which is everything. The mind splits the nothing into everything, the mind being the reflection of itself...an appearance , an integral aspect of the same oneness, the one reflects itself as the many. Oneness is not an experience. All experiences are appearances in oneness as known concepts...aka language, so in reality, nothing is knowing itself, nothing is experiencing itself except the word which is nothing at all appearing as something.

This is so bizarrely mysterious and divinely beautiful at the same time.

.

.

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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by AlexW » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:00 am

Hi,
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:09 am
This is so bizarrely mysterious and divinely beautiful at the same time.
Yes :-) I fully agree with what you say - mysteriously beautiful.

What I am interested in is finding a new way of communicating the above, of altering peoples' way of thinking so they are open to receiving messages of oneness. To open their minds to the forgotten non-dual foundation of the dualistic world they have constructed on top of infinity. I think this is the only possible way out of the egotistical spiral of destruction the world has departed on. I know this sounds impossible... but even baby steps will somewhen take you to the finish line :-)

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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:58 am

AlexW wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:00 am
Hi,
Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:09 am
This is so bizarrely mysterious and divinely beautiful at the same time.
Yes :-) I fully agree with what you say - mysteriously beautiful.

What I am interested in is finding a new way of communicating the above, of altering peoples' way of thinking so they are open to receiving messages of oneness. To open their minds to the forgotten non-dual foundation of the dualistic world they have constructed on top of infinity. I think this is the only possible way out of the egotistical spiral of destruction the world has departed on. I know this sounds impossible... but even baby steps will somewhen take you to the finish line :-)
I agree, it may look like an impossible task, but infinity is a long time, I guess there is all the time in the world in which to complete this task :D

I'm hopeful that very soon this message will be common knowledge to everyone on the planet, we'll all be thinking like this, it'll be a normal way of being and thinking, and it will change our lives forever and for the better. :D

We live in hope. :wink:

Good job by the way..I'm reading your infinity thread, it is amazing, well done for articulating this very important understanding, you do it very well.

.

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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by AlexW » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:28 am

Yes, infinity is a long time... Nice meeting you :-)

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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:36 pm

AlexW wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:28 am
Yes, infinity is a long time... Nice meeting you :-)
Nice to meet you too :D...but we really should stop meeting up like this....hehehe...it’s a contradiction.

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