The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

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Dalek Prime
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dalek Prime »

Dubious wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:16 am
Dalek Prime wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:54 am Heck, how did I miss this? Anyway, you're doing a fine job Dubious. Ta!
Only doing it to keep my mental apparatus lubricated...which I noticed isn't rust proof...and for no other reason. Best part is, it works even when I screw-up...which happens so seldom! :lol:
Hey, your reasons are your business. 8)
1x0
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by 1x0 »

I agree. Absolute nothing cannot be ever since anything exist.

"The null hypothesis is that nothing, zero is a physical reality based mathematical conception which we can perceive as an energy, matter, information, space, time free state. Revealing as our common physical, mathematical, philosophical origin, a physical reality based mathematical reference point. I state that in proportion to this physical reality based sense(conception) everything has some kind of mathematically expressible value. Space, time, information, energy, matter.

The hypothesis is based on the fact that space expands and time evolves which points that our current moment is bigger(more*) than the moment before. Following this path backward on the timeline of the physical reality we arrive to the lowest possible physical state, which I perceive as a space(time), energy, matter, information-free state. 0. In proportion to this state, everything has value. Everything has mathematically expressible value. Space, time, energy, matter and information. " - tlz

*at least on the level of information about its existence (Time)
Dawid
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dawid »

I'm not very good with math

"Okay, now given that you have 10 cups with the random possibility of each cup having as many as 10 coins in it, what is the possibility that you have the same number of coins in all 10 cups?

Mathematically that would be (1/10)^10 or 0.0000000001."

How did we get to the number of 10 cups and 10 coins?

I am wondering though, if I have 10 sweets in my hand and eat them all, how many do i have left in my hand? Surely that leaves absolutely none... unless we're counting particles of sweet, but then surely we look at what a 'sweet' is... :|
AlexW
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by AlexW »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:41 am Nothingness cannot be known...Except in relation to Everything.

What is Everything?.... cannot be known either, except as concept, as language is dual by nature.

The paradox of duality is unavoidable, as the concept of oneness is inconceivable.
Nothing and everything are the same - just like zero and infinity are the same. These concepts make no sense in duality (but we use them anyway).
I agree, that the concept of oneness is inconceivable. But: Oneness itself IS conceivable.
Taking this a step further we find that this is true for all concepts. Even the concept of tree is (in reality) inconceivable as all we really know is undivided truth/reality... but by covering it up with a conceptual, objective map of separation we actually believe there is a separate self that experiences external objects (which we never actually do).
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Dontaskme
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dontaskme »

AlexW wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:30 am
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:41 am Nothingness cannot be known...Except in relation to Everything.

What is Everything?.... cannot be known either, except as concept, as language is dual by nature.

The paradox of duality is unavoidable, as the concept of oneness is inconceivable.
Nothing and everything are the same - just like zero and infinity are the same. These concepts make no sense in duality (but we use them anyway).
I agree, that the concept of oneness is inconceivable. But: Oneness itself IS conceivable.
Taking this a step further we find that this is true for all concepts. Even the concept of tree is (in reality) inconceivable as all we really know is undivided truth/reality... but by covering it up with a conceptual, objective map of separation we actually believe there is a separate self that experiences external objects (which we never actually do).
Hello AlexW...sorry I've only just realised you'd replied to me, even though you replied 12 days ago. I'm only just seeing it.
I agree with you, nothing and everything are the same, they only differ in context put there by knowledge, language, interpretation etc..

Oneness is conceivable in the context it is conceived by language, oneness becomes known within the experience of being it. . although it is not an experience, the experience is an 'appearance' in it...a feeling or sensation so to speak, but it's only oneness itself experiencing the feeling and sensation so it's a phantom.

What I mean by that is without knowledge - nothing would be conceiving of itself, so knowing you know is a mental phenomena, an appearance within itself. There has to be something for an appearance to arise in, that something is nothing which is everything. The mind splits the nothing into everything, the mind being the reflection of itself...an appearance , an integral aspect of the same oneness, the one reflects itself as the many. Oneness is not an experience. All experiences are appearances in oneness as known concepts...aka language, so in reality, nothing is knowing itself, nothing is experiencing itself except the word which is nothing at all appearing as something.

This is so bizarrely mysterious and divinely beautiful at the same time.

.

.
AlexW
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by AlexW »

Hi,
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:09 am This is so bizarrely mysterious and divinely beautiful at the same time.
Yes :-) I fully agree with what you say - mysteriously beautiful.

What I am interested in is finding a new way of communicating the above, of altering peoples' way of thinking so they are open to receiving messages of oneness. To open their minds to the forgotten non-dual foundation of the dualistic world they have constructed on top of infinity. I think this is the only possible way out of the egotistical spiral of destruction the world has departed on. I know this sounds impossible... but even baby steps will somewhen take you to the finish line :-)
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Dontaskme
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dontaskme »

AlexW wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:00 am Hi,
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:09 am This is so bizarrely mysterious and divinely beautiful at the same time.
Yes :-) I fully agree with what you say - mysteriously beautiful.

What I am interested in is finding a new way of communicating the above, of altering peoples' way of thinking so they are open to receiving messages of oneness. To open their minds to the forgotten non-dual foundation of the dualistic world they have constructed on top of infinity. I think this is the only possible way out of the egotistical spiral of destruction the world has departed on. I know this sounds impossible... but even baby steps will somewhen take you to the finish line :-)
I agree, it may look like an impossible task, but infinity is a long time, I guess there is all the time in the world in which to complete this task :D

I'm hopeful that very soon this message will be common knowledge to everyone on the planet, we'll all be thinking like this, it'll be a normal way of being and thinking, and it will change our lives forever and for the better. :D

We live in hope. :wink:

Good job by the way..I'm reading your infinity thread, it is amazing, well done for articulating this very important understanding, you do it very well.

.
AlexW
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by AlexW »

Yes, infinity is a long time... Nice meeting you :-)
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Dontaskme
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dontaskme »

AlexW wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:28 am Yes, infinity is a long time... Nice meeting you :-)
Nice to meet you too :D...but we really should stop meeting up like this....hehehe...it’s a contradiction.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

The reason this thread, like many, is absurd, is because one can only see things from their particular perspective, their particular reality, as if it's necessary proof that there could be no others, or lack thereof. Since this universes' possible beginning/ending is only speculation, one can't say with any amount of certainty that it had to begin, has to end or is infinite. One only has what currently is the case, from which to determine such things, but then that's a very small window indeed. Yet some would talk as if certain, where certainty cannot actually be determined. I don't mind that humans have multitudes of theories, I just hate the fact that they glaze over the fact of their actual status, and speak as if they can actually be certain.

Trust me, I know that humans must believe they know certainty so as to quell their fears. I know that the fear of uncertainty can drive some humans mad, but we're supposed to be philosophers here, and we shouldn't be afraid to not know certainty, nor to admit that we don't know it. As Socrates, the father of both philosophy and thus all it's children, (science), said, 'I only know that I know nothing,' and even though it does indeed contain some certainty, it contains certainty that he can't be certain, so he certainly tried his best to not fear uncertainty.

Philosophy... The never ending question...
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by attofishpi »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: Sat May 19, 2018 4:21 pmPhilosophy... The never ending question...
What is the question?
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

JSS wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:27 am This mathematical proof involves hyperreal mathematics and detailed ontological construction techniques. If you are not deeply familiar with those, you might want to take it very slowly, thinking about and asking about each detail from the beginning to the end.

And note ahead of time that even though we begin speaking merely of random possibilities and infinitesimal probabilities, by the time we get to the end, an absolute impossibility has been established.

================================

Okay, now given that you have 10 cups with the random possibility of each cup having as many as 10 coins in it, what is the possibility that you have the same number of coins in all 10 cups?

Mathematically that would be (1/10)^10 or 0.0000000001.

The state of nothingness and the state of absolute homogeneity are actually the same thing. If there is no distinction in affect at all in every point in space, there is no universe. Thus for a universe to exist, there must be distinction or variation in affect between the points in space. What is the possibility that every point in space is of the exact same value of PtA (potential-to-affect)?

Well, let's define a term as the specific infinite series,
infA ≡ [1+1+1+...]

Just a single infinite line would give us infA^2 points on that line if you want to include all infinitesimal lengths, all "real numbers". And assuming nothing is forcing any particular PtA value, each point on the line might have a value anywhere from infinitesimal to infinite, the range of that same infA^2 but for PtA.

So the possibility for every point on the line to have the same PtA value (given steps of 1 infinitesimal) would be;
Possibility of homogeneous line = (1/infA)^((infA)^2).

That is 1 infinitesimal reduced by itself infinitely an infinite number of times. And right there is the issue. Also in 3D space, you actually have the infinite real-number cube (to simplify from spherical) of;
Possibility of homogeneous space = (1/infA)^(infA^6)

Normally in mathematics if your number has reached 1 infinitesimal, it is accepted as zero and is certainly close enough to zero for all practical purposes but we are literally infinitely less than infinity less than 1 infinitesimal. For 3D space, we are looking at 1 infinitesimal times itself infinitely an infinite number of times, infinitely times an infinite number more times, and infinitely times an infinite number more times.

Given an infinite amount of time (an infinite timeline, another infA^2 of points in time) and with or without causality, the possibility of running across homogeneity of space is;
Possibility of homogeneity through all space = (1/infA)^(infA^6)
Possibility of homogeneity through all time = (1/infA)^(infA^12)

With a possibility being that degree of infinitely small, not only can it never randomly end up homogeneous even through an infinite number of trials (an infinite time line, never getting up to even 1 infinitesimal possibility), but it can't even be forced to be homogeneous. A force is an affect. If all affects are identical, the total affect is zero. What would be left in existence to force all points to be infinitely identical?


But if that isn't good enough for you, realize that those calculations are based on stepped values of merely 1 infinitesimal using a standard of infA. In reality, each step would be as close to absolute zero as possible without actually being absolute zero using a standard of as close to absolute infinity as possible,
AbsInf ≡ highest possible number toward absolute infinity.

And then of course,
1/AbsInf = would be the lowest possible number or value.

Thus we have,
Possibility of homogeneity through all time = (1/AbsInf)^(Absinf^12)

Now we have truly absolute zero possibility because if we are already as close to absolute zero as possible with "1/AbsInf", as soon as we multiply that by any fraction, we have breached absolute zero, impossibly small. And we have breached absolute zero by a factor of AbsInf^12 ... well, well beyond absolute zero possibility of homogeneity.

Thus Absolute Homogeneity, "Nothingness", is absolutely impossible.

Thus no universe could have ever been at a state of absolute nothingness, a pre-Big-Bang state, nor can even the tiniest fraction of any universe ever be absolutely empty. Every point throughout all space and throughout all time is filled with affectance that merely changes in density and potential.

Exyz = p + a0dp/dt + a1dp²/dt² + a3dp³/dt³ + …

Or:
Image
To avoid the reread through because of time, but mostly because of laziness, are you arguing that mathematics mirrors itself through the equation (which is mathematics) as space?
PoeticUniverse
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by PoeticUniverse »

On the One and Only Existence

Prolog

In this lost haunt on the Orion arm
Of the galaxy, safe from the core’s harm,
The philosophers meet in the forum,
As sleuth-hounds unweaving the Cosmic yarn.

We search for the Start of the Universe,
The End, the Before, the After, the Kinds,
The Measures, and All That Lies Between:
The Music of the Spheres’ Magnificat.

We follow every single avenue,
Whether it’s brightly lit or a dark alley,
Exploring one-ways, no-ways, and dead-ends,
Until cornered where the Truth is hiding.

Since we all became of this universe,
Should we not ask who we are, whence we came?
Insight clefts night’s skirt with its radiance—
The Theory of Everything shines through!

We are ever in touch with the unknown,
For that’s ever the reach of science shown.
Reality is grasped by focusing
On what interacts with what and the means.

There is a realm of happenings, not things,
For ‘things’ don’t remain the same on time’s wings.
What remains through time are processes—
Relations between different systems.

An Eternal Basis has to be so,
For a lack of anything cannot sow,
Forcing there to be something permanent,
As partless, from which the particles grow.

Consider quantum fields of waves atop
One another: waves are continuous,
And so qualify as Fundamental;
Quantized lumps are particles, then more.

Note that there is no other absolute:
Newton’s fixed space and time got Einstein’s boot;
Particle spigots making fields are mute;
Classic fields have no fundamental loot.

There’s a lightness of elemental being
Since any more would have to be of parts,
And thus go beyond the fundamental arts.
The puffs of vacuum energy are small.


On the Forced Defaults for the Only Existence

There can only be the one Existence,
Forced, with no option for it not to be,
Which is no mystery because the ‘Nil’
Cannot be, even as spacers within.

There is neither ‘Full’ nor ‘Null’,
But a lightness of being near ‘Zero’,
As that’s what the universe amounts to,
Nor ‘Nil’s kin as ‘Still’, since there’s constant change.

This must-be partless Existence Eterne
Can’t end, so it must remain as itself,
Transmuting into multiplicity
Of the temporary as ‘elementaries’.

Since Existence has to be, of not ‘null’,
‘Supernatural Magic’ isn’t required;
So, there’s only the natural as the base;
One degree of freedom is its forced default.

Motion is a must, or naught could happen;
It can’t have parts, so it’s continuous;
Since no end, it can return to itself.
There can’t be anything else but it.

It is everywhere, with no gaps of ‘zilch’,
Waving, as that’s ubiquitous in nature;
Rearranging to the elementary
Particles at stable rungs of quanta.

Only quantum fields fit the criteria;
‘Particles as spigots’ failed to flow,
Newton’s ‘Space’ and ‘Time’ disappeared via
Einstein’s relativity special and general.

Quantum field points that just spring up and down
Form the field’s waves by dragging on others.
These sums of harmonic oscillations
Force the fixed quanta energy levels.

So the wave estimate proved to be right;
An electron/photon goes through both slits
Because it is a spread out field quantum.
Quantum jumps are due no wave fractionals.

The universe is a large quantum field,
For the 24 quantum fields interact,
This containing the whole of physics.
There’s no ‘God’s’ eye view; anything happens.

The anything in the massive universe
Is a lot of needed ‘extravagant’ stuff,
Since on Earth the right conditions obtained,
Our planet being where and what it has to be.

Cosmic and biological evolution were forced,
Stars collecting the elementaries,
Producing all the atomic elements
That went on to molecules, cells, and more.

All this took 13.75 billion years,
Since, again, there were no hoodoo shortcuts.
Life and consciousness emerged, no ‘Mojo’—
Since before that time on Earth there was none!

We, too, are forced to exist.

‘Magic’ has fallen by the wayside, it
As trancendence an intangible writ,
Unable to be distinct from matter,
Having to talk/walk the talk/walk of it.

An extra distinct realm isn’t needed,
As ‘intangible’, ‘ineffable’, etc.,
For it only begs the question—a shock!—
And as separate couldn’t have effect.

The ‘nonmaterial’ and ‘nonphysical’
Haven’t shown anything at all to date,
Plus, all the more they’d have to be explained;
The ‘metaphysical’ search has to fail.

The ‘God’ idea has fallen from its throne;
Forever quantum fields’ excitations’
Elementary quanta roll on those fields
That are everywhere and remain themselves.


Epilog

The quantum fields’ unity is the Whole,
Being ever, exhausting Reality,
Unbreakable and Unmakeable,
As partless and continuous monads.

All that emerges is still the fields at heart,
Though secondary and temporary,
Arising and at some time returning;
The quantum fields are Indivisible.

Quantum fields are the fundamental strokes
Whose excitations at harmonics cloak
The quanta with the stability
To persist and thus obtain mobility.

The elementary particles beget,
As letters of the Cosmic alphabet,
And combine in words to write the story
Of the stars, atoms, cells, and life’s glory.

Why Something?

Quantum states melt via uncertainty,
And this means that no quantum property
Can e’er be zero—a precise amount,
And so it is that motion can ne’er cease.

The Something

The quantum field is the bridge between ‘Nil’
And basic matter, and can ne’er be still;
Thus the ‘vacuum’ is the quietest field—
The closest approach to ‘Nothing’ that can be.

No ‘Null’ nor Matter Full

‘Nothing’ had no chance to be the hero,
Plus QM scrubs the idea of zero
Out of the physical world of being;
‘Zilch’ ne’er sleeps, but is e’er up to something.

A Mere Blip

But for the small quantum uncertainty,
The Cosmos sums to naught, its lunch being free:
No net electric charge; a weightless brick;
Minus-potential = plus-kinetic.

Oh, those imaginings of what can’t be!
Such as Nought, Stillness, and the Block’s decree,
As well as Apart, Beginning, and End,
The Unfixed Will, Blame, Fame, and Theity.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dontaskme »

PoeticUniverse wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:46 am On the One and Only Existence

Prolog

In this lost haunt on the Orion arm
Of the galaxy, safe from the core’s harm,
The philosophers meet in the forum,
As sleuth-hounds unweaving the Cosmic yarn.

We search for the Start of the Universe,
The End, the Before, the After, the Kinds,
The Measures, and All That Lies Between:
The Music of the Spheres’ Magnificat.

We follow every single avenue,
Whether it’s brightly lit or a dark alley,
Exploring one-ways, no-ways, and dead-ends,
Until cornered where the Truth is hiding.

Since we all became of this universe,
Should we not ask who we are, whence we came?
Insight clefts night’s skirt with its radiance—
The Theory of Everything shines through!

We are ever in touch with the unknown,
For that’s ever the reach of science shown.
Reality is grasped by focusing
On what interacts with what and the means.

There is a realm of happenings, not things,
For ‘things’ don’t remain the same on time’s wings.
What remains through time are processes—
Relations between different systems.

An Eternal Basis has to be so,
For a lack of anything cannot sow,
Forcing there to be something permanent,
As partless, from which the particles grow.

Consider quantum fields of waves atop
One another: waves are continuous,
And so qualify as Fundamental;
Quantized lumps are particles, then more.

Note that there is no other absolute:
Newton’s fixed space and time got Einstein’s boot;
Particle spigots making fields are mute;
Classic fields have no fundamental loot.

There’s a lightness of elemental being
Since any more would have to be of parts,
And thus go beyond the fundamental arts.
The puffs of vacuum energy are small.


On the Forced Defaults for the Only Existence

There can only be the one Existence,
Forced, with no option for it not to be,
Which is no mystery because the ‘Nil’
Cannot be, even as spacers within.

There is neither ‘Full’ nor ‘Null’,
But a lightness of being near ‘Zero’,
As that’s what the universe amounts to,
Nor ‘Nil’s kin as ‘Still’, since there’s constant change.

This must-be partless Existence Eterne
Can’t end, so it must remain as itself,
Transmuting into multiplicity
Of the temporary as ‘elementaries’.

Since Existence has to be, of not ‘null’,
‘Supernatural Magic’ isn’t required;
So, there’s only the natural as the base;
One degree of freedom is its forced default.

Motion is a must, or naught could happen;
It can’t have parts, so it’s continuous;
Since no end, it can return to itself.
There can’t be anything else but it.

It is everywhere, with no gaps of ‘zilch’,
Waving, as that’s ubiquitous in nature;
Rearranging to the elementary
Particles at stable rungs of quanta.

Only quantum fields fit the criteria;
‘Particles as spigots’ failed to flow,
Newton’s ‘Space’ and ‘Time’ disappeared via
Einstein’s relativity special and general.

Quantum field points that just spring up and down
Form the field’s waves by dragging on others.
These sums of harmonic oscillations
Force the fixed quanta energy levels.

So the wave estimate proved to be right;
An electron/photon goes through both slits
Because it is a spread out field quantum.
Quantum jumps are due no wave fractionals.

The universe is a large quantum field,
For the 24 quantum fields interact,
This containing the whole of physics.
There’s no ‘God’s’ eye view; anything happens.

The anything in the massive universe
Is a lot of needed ‘extravagant’ stuff,
Since on Earth the right conditions obtained,
Our planet being where and what it has to be.

Cosmic and biological evolution were forced,
Stars collecting the elementaries,
Producing all the atomic elements
That went on to molecules, cells, and more.

All this took 13.75 billion years,
Since, again, there were no hoodoo shortcuts.
Life and consciousness emerged, no ‘Mojo’—
Since before that time on Earth there was none!

We, too, are forced to exist.

‘Magic’ has fallen by the wayside, it
As trancendence an intangible writ,
Unable to be distinct from matter,
Having to talk/walk the talk/walk of it.

An extra distinct realm isn’t needed,
As ‘intangible’, ‘ineffable’, etc.,
For it only begs the question—a shock!—
And as separate couldn’t have effect.

The ‘nonmaterial’ and ‘nonphysical’
Haven’t shown anything at all to date,
Plus, all the more they’d have to be explained;
The ‘metaphysical’ search has to fail.

The ‘God’ idea has fallen from its throne;
Forever quantum fields’ excitations’
Elementary quanta roll on those fields
That are everywhere and remain themselves.


Epilog

The quantum fields’ unity is the Whole,
Being ever, exhausting Reality,
Unbreakable and Unmakeable,
As partless and continuous monads.

All that emerges is still the fields at heart,
Though secondary and temporary,
Arising and at some time returning;
The quantum fields are Indivisible.

Quantum fields are the fundamental strokes
Whose excitations at harmonics cloak
The quanta with the stability
To persist and thus obtain mobility.

The elementary particles beget,
As letters of the Cosmic alphabet,
And combine in words to write the story
Of the stars, atoms, cells, and life’s glory.

Why Something?

Quantum states melt via uncertainty,
And this means that no quantum property
Can e’er be zero—a precise amount,
And so it is that motion can ne’er cease.

The Something

The quantum field is the bridge between ‘Nil’
And basic matter, and can ne’er be still;
Thus the ‘vacuum’ is the quietest field—
The closest approach to ‘Nothing’ that can be.

No ‘Null’ nor Matter Full

‘Nothing’ had no chance to be the hero,
Plus QM scrubs the idea of zero
Out of the physical world of being;
‘Zilch’ ne’er sleeps, but is e’er up to something.

A Mere Blip

But for the small quantum uncertainty,
The Cosmos sums to naught, its lunch being free:
No net electric charge; a weightless brick;
Minus-potential = plus-kinetic.

Oh, those imaginings of what can’t be!
Such as Nought, Stillness, and the Block’s decree,
As well as Apart, Beginning, and End,
The Unfixed Will, Blame, Fame, and Theity.
Lovely!

Nice of you to drop by the forum Austin. :D
PoeticUniverse
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:11 am
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY

Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by PoeticUniverse »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:26 am Lovely!

Nice of you to drop by the forum Austin. :D
It's the beginning of the end of the demon-haunted world!
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