The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

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faulkner1
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by faulkner1 »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:54 am
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dontaskme wrote: Humans became transcendental through natural substances, perhaps the universe was trying to awaken to itself?
I
Silly comment of the week.

"The Universe" thinks that getting monkeymen to take drug is a way of awakening, duh!
We have only got language to use as pointers to the obviousness of pure awareness or ocean of pure potential....this is going to take forever to explain this to you people...but that's the only way it seems..

There is no physicality ...there is no monkey or human or ..what ever else you care to imagine...

There is only the ocean of pure awareness awaring itself...in other words nothing being everything.

Your whole reality is built upon the imagination of yourself...you are the painter of your dream upon the blank canvas of your being.

Awakening to your no self is a very rare phenomena for those still trapped in their mental self. Who told you you actually exist for real?

The idea of a you existing is no one telling the story of itself..it's pure narrative as appearance, aka knowledge of itself...no one is writing the story, although there are many authors appearing...and only ever one reading the story no one ever writ....
you mean the ocean of pure quantum consciousness. which your consciousness is actually coming from there. awareness may is actually from the brain, since NDE happens in the brain when awareness stops you're in deep sleep, awareenss may be linked to one part of the brain which is close to the pineal gland , but your locus of consciousness is in the middle of your brain
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:59 am When 'God' first started introducing itself to me back in 1997 - i drove out to Kuitpo Forest here in South Australia - at night time.

After i parked, I saw a shooting star zip across the sky in one direction, then i saw another in the same area zip across the sky in exactly the opposite direction, then i saw a third zip across the sky in the same direction as the first. It doesnt take a braniac to realise that rocks entering the atmosphere do not enter at opposite angles in the same space of the upper atmosphere.

About 10 minutes after this i saw a craft of some sort flashing three beams of light each one below the other as it disappeared into the distance.

My conclusion to this day is that if you want to believe in aliens hanging around the Earth - then God will project that to you. If you want to believe in ghosts - then God will show you one - etc etc etc....On the flip side - these 'aliens' could be the God that i have 20yrs of experience of - in other words it could ultimately be just their technology..
Wait until your room lights up from every perceivable angle at one moment, a disk is hovering in the back yard shooting beams of light into the ground, or a 19th century little girl is running through your hallway, shadows pass by and the cubbard doors open mysteriously, or a 19th century woman is staring directly at you from a set of stairs in a house that was once "exorcised" of that same spirit......

The world is often times bigger than it appears to be....I tell myself I am crazy just to "fit in"...."don't worry about me I am just delusional....now who won the football game?"
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dalek Prime »

Are we still arguing this? Look, my awareness goes, there is nothing. At least nothing that truly matters.
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Lacewing
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Lacewing »

Dalek Prime wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:05 am Look, my awareness goes, there is nothing.
Do you mean when you die? If so, how do you know that your awareness completely stops/goes?
Dalek Prime wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:05 am At least nothing that truly matters.
Yes, whatever seems to matter on the human level -- because the human level is full of noise and fabrications that only apply to the human level. When that ends, however, the quality of awareness could shift to something else, if awareness is not limited to the human body. (As I've shared on this forum, that was my experience when I was on the threshold of death: awareness is more than human ideas/noise.)
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:21 pm
JSS wrote:This mathematical proof involves hyperreal mathematics and detailed ontological construction techniques. If you are not deeply familiar with those, you might want to take it very slowly, thinking about and asking about each detail from the beginning to the end.

And note ahead of time that even though we begin speaking merely of random possibilities and infinitesimal probabilities, by the time we get to the end, an absolute impossibility has been established.

================================

Okay, now given that you have 10 cups with the random possibility of each cup having as many as 10 coins in it, what is the possibility that you have the same number of coins in all 10 cups?

Mathematically that would be (1/10)^10 or 0.0000000001.

The state of nothingness and the state of absolute homogeneity are actually the same thing. If there is no distinction in affect at all in every point in space, there is no universe. Thus for a universe to exist, there must be distinction or variation in affect between the points in space. What is the possibility that every point in space is of the exact same value of PtA (potential-to-affect)?

Well, let's define a term as the specific infinite series,
infA ≡ [1+1+1+...]

Just a single infinite line would give us infA^2 points on that line if you want to include all infinitesimal lengths, all "real numbers". And assuming nothing is forcing any particular PtA value, each point on the line might have a value anywhere from infinitesimal to infinite, the range of that same infA^2 but for PtA.

So the possibility for every point on the line to have the same PtA value (given steps of 1 infinitesimal) would be;
Possibility of homogeneous line = (1/infA)^((infA)^2).

That is 1 infinitesimal reduced by itself infinitely an infinite number of times. And right there is the issue. Also in 3D space, you actually have the infinite real-number cube (to simplify from spherical) of;
Possibility of homogeneous space = (1/infA)^(infA^6)

Normally in mathematics if your number has reached 1 infinitesimal, it is accepted as zero and is certainly close enough to zero for all practical purposes but we are literally infinitely less than infinity less than 1 infinitesimal. For 3D space, we are looking at 1 infinitesimal times itself infinitely an infinite number of times, infinitely times an infinite number more times, and infinitely times an infinite number more times.

Given an infinite amount of time (an infinite timeline, another infA^2 of points in time) and with or without causality, the possibility of running across homogeneity of space is;
Possibility of homogeneity through all space = (1/infA)^(infA^6)
Possibility of homogeneity through all time = (1/infA)^(infA^12)

With a possibility being that degree of infinitely small, not only can it never randomly end up homogeneous even through an infinite number of trials (an infinite time line, never getting up to even 1 infinitesimal possibility), but it can't even be forced to be homogeneous. A force is an affect. If all affects are identical, the total affect is zero. What would be left in existence to force all points to be infinitely identical?


But if that isn't good enough for you, realize that those calculations are based on stepped values of merely 1 infinitesimal using a standard of infA. In reality, each step would be as close to absolute zero as possible without actually being absolute zero using a standard of as close to absolute infinity as possible,
AbsInf ≡ highest possible number toward absolute infinity.

And then of course,
1/AbsInf = would be the lowest possible number or value.

Thus we have,
Possibility of homogeneity through all time = (1/AbsInf)^(Absinf^12)

Now we have truly absolute zero possibility because if we are already as close to absolute zero as possible with "1/AbsInf", as soon as we multiply that by any fraction, we have breached absolute zero, impossibly small. And we have breached absolute zero by a factor of AbsInf^12 ... well, well beyond absolute zero possibility of homogeneity.

Thus Absolute Homogeneity, "Nothingness", is absolutely impossible.

Thus no universe could have ever been at a state of absolute nothingness, a pre-Big-Bang state, nor can even the tiniest fraction of any universe ever be absolutely empty. Every point throughout all space and throughout all time is filled with affectance that merely changes in density and potential.

Exyz = p + a0dp/dt + a1dp²/dt² + a3dp³/dt³ + …

Or:
Image
Your argument is made in a universe of things, it's all you know. As such your proof is all about things, so obviously it can't prove the possibility of nothing. Without using any maths at all, the fact that there are maths, prove there could never have been nothing. If in the beginning there was nothing, there could never be anything, thus nothing could be used to prove there could be something. I see that the two ideas are mutually exclusive. In any case the questions still boggle the human mind.
Would you agree or disagree then, that what we understand of nothingness (ie 0d) is fundamentally movement (ie, the 1d line as direction observes the 0d point as strictly an individuator, which seperates the line to other lines, with the interrelated directions being a foundation for movement as relation)?
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dubious »

Dalek Prime wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:05 am Look, my awareness goes, there is nothing.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 amDo you mean when you die? If so, how do you know that your awareness completely stops/goes?
What's supposed to keep it going once the brain is nothing more than a dead piece of meat. The implication always forces the question, why and what would it keep going? Although one can't claim complete knowledge, the outcome of death being exactly what it looks like, invokes a probability an infinitesimal away from a certainty.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 amYes, whatever seems to matter on the human level -- because the human level is full of noise and fabrications that only apply to the human level. When that ends, however, the quality of awareness could shift to something else, if awareness is not limited to the human body. (As I've shared on this forum, that was my experience when I was on the threshold of death: awareness is more than human ideas/noise.)
Being on the "threshold of death" means that a U-turn is still possible; it hasn't yet actually crossed the barrier "from whose bourn no traveler returns". There is still awareness, even in its distorted state of supreme trauma approaching the irrevocable transition point...a crossing which dissolves after having crossed. It's only wishful thinking that keeps it "rolling along" like Old Man River.
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Lacewing »

Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:27 am
Dalek Prime wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:05 am Look, my awareness goes, there is nothing.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 amDo you mean when you die? If so, how do you know that your awareness completely stops/goes?
What's supposed to keep it going once the brain is nothing more than a dead piece of meat. The implication always forces the question, why and what would it keep going? Although one can't claim complete knowledge, the outcome of death being exactly what it looks like, invokes a probability an infinitesimal away from a certainty.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 amYes, whatever seems to matter on the human level -- because the human level is full of noise and fabrications that only apply to the human level. When that ends, however, the quality of awareness could shift to something else, if awareness is not limited to the human body. (As I've shared on this forum, that was my experience when I was on the threshold of death: awareness is more than human ideas/noise.)
Being on the "threshold of death" means that a U-turn is still possible; it hasn't yet actually crossed the barrier "from whose bourn no traveler returns". There is still awareness, even in its distorted state of supreme trauma approaching the irrevocable transition point...a crossing which dissolves after having crossed. It's only wishful thinking that keeps it "rolling along" like Old Man River.
So I'm guessing that you don't think it's possible to be in touch with, and/or communicate with, "spirits" who have passed... or anything else without a physical body and a brain, yes?

Haven't there been experiments showing that there are brainless forms of life (plants, perhaps) that have awareness? I'm suggesting that the brain's awareness is not the only kind of awareness. When people experience other kinds of awareness -- that go beyond what the brain could know -- doesn't that demonstrate that we are not ONLY these bodies?
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dubious »

Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:27 amBeing on the "threshold of death" means that a U-turn is still possible; it hasn't yet actually crossed the barrier "from whose bourn no traveler returns". There is still awareness, even in its distorted state of supreme trauma approaching the irrevocable transition point...a crossing which dissolves after having crossed. It's only wishful thinking that keeps it "rolling along" like Old Man River.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 amSo I'm guessing that you don't think it's possible to be in touch with, and/or communicate with, "spirits" who have passed... or anything else without a physical body and a brain, yes?
It’s logical to think that a “possibility” would occasionally manifest as a reality. Do you know of any instances when the dead and the living have communicated?
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 amHaven't there been experiments showing that there are brainless forms of life (plants, perhaps) that have awareness?
I think you’re conflating biological sensitivities with consciousness. Everything alive has some mode of sensing its environment. Would a tree need a brain to do that? Is it going anywhere or is there just a basic process involved? When the tree dies whatever and however it “sensed” dies with it, the same as happens to a human when operations cease.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 amI'm suggesting that the brain's awareness is not the only kind of awareness. When people experience other kinds of awareness -- that go beyond what the brain could know -- doesn't that demonstrate that we are not ONLY these bodies?
Does the butterfly know that it used to be a caterpillar or is it only aware (if one can use that word) of being one or the other in spite of its metamorphosis. Just because humans can experience mystical states, “going beyond what the brain could know”, in no way precludes the brain from having initiated the experience. Where else would it have come from. Awareness can breed sensations which seem ultra-real to the brain and the best it can do is to simply experience it...while it can.
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

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Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 amSo I'm guessing that you don't think it's possible to be in touch with, and/or communicate with, "spirits" who have passed... or anything else without a physical body and a brain, yes?
It’s logical to think that a “possibility” would occasionally manifest as a reality. Do you know of any instances when the dead and the living have communicated?
If communication between the dead and the living is possible, then the "dead" would be aware in SOME WAY (in order to have communication, right?)... even if it were a different awareness than those in bodies.

As we both surely know, there have been and are countless people throughout our entire history who claim to have experienced other-worldly entities/communications. Even if only one of those was true, that would suggest that the universe (including ourselves) does not revolve around (nor is limited to) human brains. :D And, yes, I have experienced similar for myself, although it hasn't been "between the dead and the living"... rather, I've experienced energy and awareness beyond my own physical form... and it seemed perfectly natural at the time. Even though I wasn't expecting it to happen, when it did, I naturally "shifted" into tune with it. In each of those (sober) moments, it was simply an expansion of reality... additional frequencies open to see! It made sense.
Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 amHaven't there been experiments showing that there are brainless forms of life (plants, perhaps) that have awareness?
I think you’re conflating biological sensitivities with consciousness.
I'm just suggesting that there are more levels of awareness than what WE identify as awareness... since we tend to define everything based on ourselves. Does that seem far-fetched to you?
Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 amI'm suggesting that the brain's awareness is not the only kind of awareness. When people experience other kinds of awareness -- that go beyond what the brain could know -- doesn't that demonstrate that we are not ONLY these bodies?
Does the butterfly know that it used to be a caterpillar or is it only aware (if one can use that word) of being one or the other in spite of its metamorphosis.
Okay, now you're being ridiculous. 8) There is no reason for the butterfly to keep track or define such things.
Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am Just because humans can experience mystical states, “going beyond what the brain could know”, in no way precludes the brain from having initiated the experience.
So... just to reason this out... how is it that people suddenly experience or know something that is BEYOND the scope of their experience and knowledge? How can the meaty brain do that? Or do you dispute the truth of such claims and recorded experiences across the board? You're surely already aware that such claims are a reality... so it's a matter of whether you consider the implications of such a thing, or you simply don't think it's true.
Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am Where else would it have come from. Awareness can breed sensations which seem ultra-real to the brain and the best it can do is to simply experience it...while it can.
The implications for me, of beyond-the-brain awareness, are that the meaty brain is just a receptive computer for the Universal operating system... and WE are part of the operating system, NOT JUST the computer mechanism... which is why we would have access to more than the limited functionality and life of the mechanical computer. The operating system is a highly complex and evolving language driving all to greater and greater efficiency and functioning, so the mechanical computer brain's definitions are limited if it only uploads information. It needs to stay connected online once in awhile to download broader functionality. :D What do you think?
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dalek Prime »

Heck, how did I miss this? Anyway, you're doing a fine job Dubious. Ta!
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dubious »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 amSo I'm guessing that you don't think it's possible to be in touch with, and/or communicate with, "spirits" who have passed... or anything else without a physical body and a brain, yes?
Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am It’s logical to think that a “possibility” would occasionally manifest as a reality. Do you know of any instances when the dead and the living have communicated?
Lacewing wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:09 pmIf communication between the dead and the living is possible, then the "dead" would be aware in SOME WAY (in order to have communication, right?)... even if it were a different awareness than those in bodies.
One problem with this, as I see it, is that one can append an “IF” to almost any argument to make it seem viable. The dead, as you say, would be aware in “some way” retaining their identity as humans having lived, to communicate with the living. A simple “if”, however, doesn’t preempt the question of whether a certified instance of any such type of communication ever took place.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:09 pmAs we both surely know, there have been and are countless people throughout our entire history who claim to have experienced other-worldly entities/communications. Even if only one of those was true, that would suggest that the universe (including ourselves) does not revolve around (nor is limited to) human brains. :D
There is no doubt countless claims have been and will continue being made. The problem resides in defining the source and the ONLY sure evidence of that is the convoluted piece of meat crammed into our craniums.

To explain those mysteries we tend to make “if” statements denoting possibilities never consummated and further prevent coming to terms with the real source of those mystical feelings...the lowly, meaty brain; yet when of some part of its chemistry screws up, not at all uncommon, we hear voices, see things, etc., outside of ourselves that are super-real to the perceiver. Such are usually temporary perhaps caused by anxiety; if not they are normally cured by medication as those countless people would have been if the cure or its alleviation had been available.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:09 pmAnd, yes, I have experienced similar for myself, although it hasn't been "between the dead and the living"... rather, I've experienced energy and awareness beyond my own physical form... and it seemed perfectly natural at the time. Even though I wasn't expecting it to happen, when it did, I naturally "shifted" into tune with it. In each of those (sober) moments, it was simply an expansion of reality... additional frequencies open to see! It made sense.
I would never argue against these experiences having had a few of my own; “shifting into tune with it” is precisely the right thing to do...and while they do make sense on there own level, there’s always a bit that doesn’t. Like dreams they can be stunning in their total disregard of logic; the content so eccentric beyond any “conscious” limit that we’re used to, that I often wondered how alien the brain can be when something so separate from me can present itself in that way...and yet while dreaming, it all makes sense!

The great mystery, as I see it, is what the mental material in our skulls is capable of as already experienced; it does not apply to some other-worldly after-death state forever qualified by if statements.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 am Haven't there been experiments showing that there are brainless forms of life (plants, perhaps) that have awareness?
Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am I think you’re conflating biological sensitivities with consciousness.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 amI'm just suggesting that there are more levels of awareness than what WE identify as awareness... since we tend to define everything based on ourselves. Does that seem far-fetched to you?
As already implied, even on a physical basis, the “I” already contains more than what we can know about ourselves with the ability to extend itself beyond what consciousness normally mandates. Conversely an awareness separate from the brain which achieves escape velocity after its decease makes no sense at all.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 amI'm suggesting that the brain's awareness is not the only kind of awareness. When people experience other kinds of awareness -- that go beyond what the brain could know -- doesn't that demonstrate that we are not ONLY these bodies?
Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 amDoes the butterfly know that it used to be a caterpillar or is it only aware (if one can use that word) of being one or the other in spite of its metamorphosis.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 amOkay, now you're being ridiculous. 8) There is no reason for the butterfly to keep track or define such things.
It was only a metaphor which I should have made more explicit. The point of it was even if something of you carries forward, I could only imagine it as an anonymous entity without any knowledge of its former physical existence. Whatever of you gets transferred would exist in an entirely new being making your current state a single event in which nothing follows once defunct. As a unique being with its memories and history, you’re dead either way.
Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am Just because humans can experience mystical states, “going beyond what the brain could know”, in no way precludes the brain from having initiated the experience.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 amSo... just to reason this out... how is it that people suddenly experience or know something that is BEYOND the scope of their experience and knowledge? How can the meaty brain do that?
Good question! which can also be reversed. If not the meaty brain, then what’s doing it? Intuition is a very potent function of survival. It’s not unusual for the human brain, especially among those more endowed, to synthesize seemingly disconnected events into moments of single insight. Neither is it unusual to have this knowledge conveyed in dreams. Should this infer that such abstractions must exceed the messy sponge that seems to be doing it?
Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am Where else would it have come from. Awareness can breed sensations which seem ultra-real to the brain and the best it can do is to simply experience it...while it can.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 amThe implications for me, of beyond-the-brain awareness, are that the meaty brain is just a receptive computer for the Universal operating system... and WE are part of the operating system, NOT JUST the computer mechanism... which is why we would have access to more than the limited functionality and life of the mechanical computer. The operating system is a highly complex and evolving language driving all to greater and greater efficiency and functioning, so the mechanical computer brain's definitions are limited if it only uploads information. It needs to stay connected online once in awhile to download broader functionality. :D What do you think?
It’s a good metaphor if I understand you correctly. But if the computer (meaty brain) goes down due, let’s say, to a mother board failure what happens to the Universal operating system it hosted? It still exists in other online computers but not in yours. Your computer and whatever operating system and data it hosted goes into oblivion. What remains is only the raw material, parts of which may be reused!
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

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Dubious wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm The dead, as you say, would be aware in “some way” retaining their identity as humans having lived, to communicate with the living.
I didn't say anything about retaining an identity. Communication does not require an identity. Look at all the things in nature that communicate without identities.
Dubious wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm To explain those mysteries we tend to make “if” statements denoting possibilities never consummated and further prevent coming to terms with the real source of those mystical feelings...the lowly, meaty brain
Are there answers for how the brain could do such things beyond its experience? How are you able to conclude that you are "coming to terms with the real source" when there is so much that is unanswered? Or are you simply concluding ALL THAT IS because you DON'T KNOW what ELSE there IS? :)
Dubious wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm yet when of some part of its chemistry screws up, not at all uncommon, we hear voices, see things, etc., outside of ourselves that are super-real to the perceiver. Such are usually temporary perhaps caused by anxiety; if not they are normally cured by medication as those countless people would have been if the cure or its alleviation had been available.
Such capabilities and disorders of the brain do not explain or invalidate what we're talking about.
Dubious wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm I would never argue against these experiences having had a few of my own; “shifting into tune with it” is precisely the right thing to do...
Nice to hear you say that. Some people might dismiss or resist it... as a lot of humankind tends to do with nature. And I think that's why we miss stuff. The brain wants to rule and define EVERYTHING... and, by doing so, lives in its own creation, detached from the Universal power/energy that flows through all naturally.
Dubious wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm ...while they do make sense on there own level, there’s always a bit that doesn’t.
It can seem that way... but I suspect that's due to the brain trying to superimpose itself (judging and control muddies things). My experiences have made MORE SENSE than anything of this human world. Crystal clarity without agenda. No reason to resist being in this human world... just play and explore.
Dubious wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm Like dreams they can be stunning in their total disregard of logic
Logic is of the brain... which is why that which is beyond the brain doesn't NEED such condensed logic. Nature flows... it doesn't entertain itself with logic as we humans do. I love logic! But I can let go of it in a second... because of my experiences beyond it.
Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am if something of you carries forward, I could only imagine it as an anonymous entity without any knowledge of its former physical existence.
What about being aware of that existence, but not being identified with it? Like you would feel if you played a role on a stage for a period of time. You performed as that, but you were not that.
Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am It’s not unusual for the human brain, especially among those more endowed, to synthesize seemingly disconnected events into moments of single insight. Neither is it unusual to have this knowledge conveyed in dreams. Should this infer that such abstractions must exceed the messy sponge that seems to be doing it?
If the information is completely beyond the experience of the brain (even as disconnected events), yet the information suddenly comes into the brain, then yes that seems worth considering that the brain is just a transmitter/organizer for something more.
Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am if the computer (meaty brain) goes down due, let’s say, to a mother board failure what happens to the Universal operating system it hosted?
Then the computer cannot receive/process any input. The computer dies.
Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am It still exists in other online computers but not in yours. Your computer and whatever operating system and data it hosted goes into oblivion.
You are identifying yourself as the computer, yes? I'm suggesting that the computer is only a vessel. You are actually the operating system. That's what I'm asking you to consider. As long as you keep identifying yourself as a brain and a body and that's it, we will be unable to explain how it is that human beings can suddenly tap into awareness that is beyond their human experience. A brain can't do that by itself. But the essence flowing through it -- you -- can.

This is no more unreasonable to consider than thinking that you are a brain. :)
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

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Dubious wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm The dead, as you say, would be aware in “some way” retaining their identity as humans having lived, to communicate with the living.
Lacewing wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:04 pmI didn't say anything about retaining an identity. Communication does not require an identity. Look at all the things in nature that communicate without identities.
If there is no residual identity remaining, how would a person that died communicate with one that’s living. What would there be to communicate with?
Lacewing wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:04 pmAre there answers for how the brain could do such things beyond its experience?
Does the lack of answers prevent the brain from doing it anyways? If everything worked based on our complete understanding of it, there would be precious little that worked.
Lacewing wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:04 pmSuch capabilities and disorders of the brain do not explain or invalidate what we're talking about.
Perhaps not! But neither can brain malfunctions, of which there are many, be ruled out as factors invariably investigated as the first cause.
Dubious wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pmLike dreams they can be stunning in their total disregard of logic
Lacewing wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:04 pmLogic is of the brain... which is why that which is beyond the brain doesn't NEED such condensed logic.
No! Logic is NOT of the brain, it is a PART of the brain and likely not even the biggest part. Logic through generations had to be disciplined into the brain. Not least, sleeping & dreaming are physiological necessities of the brain. If you can’t sleep or dream you’ll first go insane and then you’ll die.
Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am if something of you carries forward, I could only imagine it as an anonymous entity without any knowledge of its former physical existence.
Lacewing wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:04 pmWhat about being aware of that existence, but not being identified with it? Like you would feel if you played a role on a stage for a period of time. You performed as that, but you were not that.
The critical difference here is that the actor in order to act is alive and therefore knows the difference. In your scenario, the acting is carried forward to where it no-longer belongs.
Dubious wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 am It still exists in other online computers but not in yours. Your computer and whatever operating system and data it hosted goes into oblivion.
All very well, but if the computer – vessel, meaty brain, or whatever you want to call it – goes down then so does everything it hosts including operating system and possibly even the BIOS. If I’m misconstruing your meaning then you’ll have to explain it better or maybe supply a better metaphor.

Since we both defended our positions reasonably well, why not just agree to disagree? :)
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Lacewing
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

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Dubious wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:17 am Since we both defended our positions reasonably well, why not just agree to disagree? :)
Thanks! Upon reading through your response, I was thinking of suggesting the same thing.
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Re: The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

Post by Dubious »

Dalek Prime wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:54 am Heck, how did I miss this? Anyway, you're doing a fine job Dubious. Ta!
Only doing it to keep my mental apparatus lubricated...which I noticed isn't rust proof...and for no other reason. Best part is, it works even when I screw-up...which happens so seldom! :lol:
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