Where is "here"?

So what's really going on?

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:25 am

[quote="Obvious Leo"]"The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we CAN imagine"....J.B.S. Haldane.

I always liked Feyman's quote:
"If you think you understand QM, then you don't understand QM"

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by Obvious Leo » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:05 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Obvious Leo wrote:"The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we CAN imagine"....J.B.S. Haldane.

I always liked Feyman's quote:
"If you think you understand QM, then you don't understand QM"
What really gets up my nose is that for the modern philosopher to be taken as a well-read and educated person he must claim to be able to "understand" physics. This is a gross perversion of our beautiful language because physics is not something to be understood. When somebody claims to be able to understand physics what he really means is that he has the ability to think in the language of the physicist and although this is no trivial accomplishment "to think in the language of" does not mean the same thing as "to understand". Physics is written in the language of mathematics and mathematics is simply NOT designed to model the universe. Mathematics is designed only to model a particular narrative of the universe which must first be formulated as a theory, an intrinsically tautologous methodology first perfected by Ptolemy, whereby the theory of the universe is able to be confirmed only by itself. The great philosophers of science of the 20th century, in particular Feyerabend and Kuhn, were keenly aware of this methodological flaw in physics and spoke of genuine progress in science as being quite impossible by this model-building approach, an opinion reinforced by centuries of science history. The few real breakthroughs in science over the past few centuries have come about not through building onto existing theories but through questioning the a priori metaphysical assumptions which underpin them and coming up with an alternative paradigm which is a better fit for the evidence. This changes the underpinning narrative of the existing theory by introducing a totally new procedure of thought and it is exactly such a paradigm shift in conceptualised thinking that modern physics is in desperate need of.

The reason why modern physics makes no sense is not because there is anything intrinsically wrong with the models of physics because these models are simply doing what they've been designed to do, which is to model a specified narrative. The reason why modern physics makes no sense is because there is something intrinsically wrong with the way we think the world.

I've said it before and I'll say it again and I'll never tire of saying it because it's fucking well TRUE.

We are thinking the world wrong. We are thinking the world in terms of objects moving in space but this is not the real world. The real world is a world of events occurring in time which the observer merely OBSERVES as a world of objects moving in space.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by petm1 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:09 pm

Obvious Leo wrote:We are thinking the world wrong. We are thinking the world in terms of objects moving in space but this is not the real world. The real world is a world of events occurring in time which the observer merely OBSERVES as a world of objects moving in space.
We are objects anchored in the present by our mass, watching past events that are tied to other objects, knowing what we see out there are objects just the same as us. Space may be the present moment we all share but it is the objects that are all tied together in the present even if we do not see it. Here is where the present resides.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:42 am

Obvious Leo wrote: The reason why modern physics makes no sense is not because there is anything intrinsically wrong with the models of physics because these models are simply doing what they've been designed to do, which is to model a specified narrative. The reason why modern physics makes no sense is because there is something intrinsically wrong with the way we think the world.

I've said it before and I'll say it again and I'll never tire of saying it because it's fucking well TRUE.

We are thinking the world wrong. We are thinking the world in terms of objects moving in space but this is not the real world. The real world is a world of events occurring in time which the observer merely OBSERVES as a world of objects moving in space.
What are you expecting?
Physics is descriptive. You can't describe anything perfectly. It's all an approximation.
You seem to be tearing your hair out saying that Physics does not make sense; then you say physics is not supposed to be understood.
Can't you see the irony here?

And as much as you try, you can only offer an alternative description. When you see how that, and any other description fits, and where it does not, you have to live with the consequent truths it produces.
Thus if you want a geocentric hypothesis, then you will have to accept that the stars in the sky are either very close, or they are capable of moving absurdly fast in massive circles around the earth.

No model has yet proved perfect. We just adjust them to new evidence, and see it it fits.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by petm1 » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:03 pm

We think of the present as being at emission after all that is what most of us see but we are receivers and our present is tied to reception. The twisted way we imagine the universe with space as real and time as imaginary is the problem, the age of the Photon I am receiving now is real, the difference between emission and reception is an illusion my mind shows me. We all share this illusion as a common present hence space is the present we all share and here means nothing without now.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:19 pm

Skip wrote:The thread that raised this question seems to have gone, but I still can't help wondering.

When somebody says "here" on an internet forum, what do they mean? What do they think of?
When you read the word, what do you think of?
In cyberland, is "here" a location, an IP address, a state of being, an action.... or what?
I'm sure it depends upon the context. For instance if someone said how often to you come here. Here would indicate the forum, which might mean to some, a hard drive on some server or the monitor attached to their computer, or maybe it's RAM. I guess it's easy for someone to see the forum as a place. To me it would be that place where everything joins, comes together, so the forums server would be where here was thus my computer is a pair of binoculars. ;)

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by petm1 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:15 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Skip wrote:The thread that raised this question seems to have gone, but I still can't help wondering.

When somebody says "here" on an internet forum, what do they mean? What do they think of?
When you read the word, what do you think of?
In cyberland, is "here" a location, an IP address, a state of being, an action.... or what?
I'm sure it depends upon the context. For instance if someone said how often to you come here. Here would indicate the forum, which might mean to some, a hard drive on some server or the monitor attached to their computer, or maybe it's RAM. I guess it's easy for someone to see the forum as a place. To me it would be that place where everything joins, comes together, so the forums server would be where here was thus my computer is a pair of binoculars. ;)
It is not a question about a place it is a question of time, how often do you bring this forum into your presence, here only makes sense when tied to an observer with a clock.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by Skip » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:01 am

I had no time in mind. Indeed, my sojourn here feels timeless, and my forum activity is constantly here even when my physical body is somewhere else, even why my consciousness if off-line - and may remain long after my conscious being ceases to be anywhere. At the time you read this, you don't know whether I'm alive or dead.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by petm1 » Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:35 pm

Skip wrote:I had no time in mind. Indeed, my sojourn here feels timeless, and my forum activity is constantly here even when my physical body is somewhere else, even why my consciousness if off-line - and may remain long after my conscious being ceases to be anywhere. At the time you read this, you don't know whether I'm alive or dead.
No matter w'here' you go t'here' you are because you are always 'here' in our hearts and not somew'here' else regardless if you are alive or dead.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:56 pm

petm1 wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Skip wrote:The thread that raised this question seems to have gone, but I still can't help wondering.

When somebody says "here" on an internet forum, what do they mean? What do they think of?
When you read the word, what do you think of?
In cyberland, is "here" a location, an IP address, a state of being, an action.... or what?
I'm sure it depends upon the context. For instance if someone said how often to you come here. Here would indicate the forum, which might mean to some, a hard drive on some server or the monitor attached to their computer, or maybe it's RAM. I guess it's easy for someone to see the forum as a place. To me it would be that place where everything joins, comes together, so the forums server would be where here was thus my computer is a pair of binoculars. ;)
It is not a question about a place it is a question of time, how often do you bring this forum into your presence, here only makes sense when tied to an observer with a clock.
I see your 'meaning,' and fully understand, and respect it.

The questions were: ...what do they 'mean?' What do they think of?
And: ...what do you think of?

So you tried to answer the latter, while I tried to answer the former, while being silly at the same time.

Though as to your answer I would argue that "here" speaks more of the 3D physical world, and 'now' speaks more of the, so called, 4th temporal dimension.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by petm1 » Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:06 am

Though as to your answer I would argue that "here" speaks more of the 3D physical world, and 'now' speaks more of the, so called, 4th temporal dimension.
No matter where I go, here I am, at least for a time in my mind. Here is always tied with a now by an observer and his clock. The 3d physical world exists in time I think of it more as one dimension of time and a twist is time gives us the subset of 3d.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:00 pm

petm1 wrote:
Though as to your answer I would argue that "here" speaks more of the 3D physical world, and 'now' speaks more of the, so called, 4th temporal dimension.
No matter where I go, here I am, at least for a time in my mind. Here is always tied with a now by an observer and his clock. The 3d physical world exists in time I think of it more as one dimension of time and a twist is time gives us the subset of 3d.
I've always heard it as: "Where ever you go, there you are!" And at least that version speaks of the fact that 'the grass is not necessarily greener on the other side,' because it's not necessarily what you see that's the problem, it's quite possibly the way you see it that is the problem. So one takes their own baggage with them, and if that baggage sucks then what one sees sucks, a function of their baggage. But I digress??, so back to it.

"Now," is clearly a moment in time, by most peoples definition, it's the most commonly used so as to communicate that concept. But most people, when they speak of here, they are speaking of a place in the 3 dimensions. So you go to the opera, and meet someone "there," the opposite of 'here.' It's understood what you mean, by the most people, it's the most common understanding.
Here's an example from a dictionary no less, notice that it's the first definition:

there [th air; unstressed th er]
adverb
1. in or at that place (opposed to here ): She is there now.

Notice how they combined 'there' and 'now' together. That's because, 'most commonly' amongst humans English language, 'there' is a 3D physical location, while 'now' is a 4thD temporal location.

here [heer]
adverb
1. in this place; in this spot or locality (opposed to there ): Put the pen here.

Notice the same thing 'here.' (in this instance) ;) One could have easily said: Put the pen here now. Again both the 3D and 4thD is mentioned instead of only the 3D. If one didn't add 'now' (time) the lazy worker might never get the pen built. Of course he'd know where in the physical world he should put it, that is only if he finally starts shortly after that moment in time (then) that he was told to do it, otherwise he may forget where his employer wanted it placed.

You have taken the word here's most common usage and used it in your own way, and you are free to do so, if it somehow serves your desires, an imagined philosophical superiority maybe, but the fact remains that if you really want to communicate an idea to someone, it's best to use words where they're most commonly used, so as to actually convey something to your fellow human. Or you could try an confound, so as to feed...

I think you get the picture, the reflection. ;)

P.S. the definitions above are compliments --dictionary.reference.com--

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by petm1 » Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:38 am

How far from here are we? If you can not see that when you use the word 'here' it is always about the present, like " "She is there now." marks a present moment even if you do not put the now in the sentence, "Put the pen here." means now unless you qualify with a different time, then I guess we will just have to leave it here between us.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:02 am

petm1 wrote:How far from here are we?
You mean to say how far from here, are you? And to answer that question I'd first have to know where you are. You cannot possibly ask that question because we are not together, if we were together however, I would answer 'zero.' As we would in fact be zero any measurement from there. OK maybe the distance between us would have to be considered, as 'here' then might be a point equally between us or encompass the entire area we cover. It would all depend upon ones intended resolution.

If you can not see that when you use the word 'here' it is always about the present,
Not at all, I live over here, while you live over there, which has nothing necessarily to do with time at all, it's about geographic location. The next thing you'll try and sell me is that a Lat/Long is a position in time. No it's a geographic location. If you and I were standing in front of a globe of the earth, and I said the epicenter was over 'here' at this Lat/Long and this Elevation, surely it would have absolutely nothing to do with time. Until I said that it had occurred at exactly 2137 Zulu. No, listen up, not 'now,' it was at time 2137 Zulu. Sheesh, some people just never listen! Or have no concept of 'place' and 'time.'

like " "She is there now." marks a present moment even if you do not put the now in the sentence,
Not in the least, as the inclusion of 'both' 'there' and 'now' contextually can only mean that one is speaking of both a geographical location and a time.

"Put the pen here." means now unless you qualify with a different time,
That is certainly not the case, as the employer knows full well that I must first visit the big box lumber supply, to acquire the necessary, tools, hardware and lumber. Here was clearly the geographic location, as later could only be the ambiguous time that I should begin, once I returned. And you can bet that I shall surely take my time at the lumber supply. Lunch, anyone? And I'll sue if he whines, because he left out the time.

then I guess we will just have to leave it here between us.
Not at all, it was never over 'there,' while it was always over 'here.' It's just taking you a very long 'time' to wake up and smell the coffee! ;)

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by petm1 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:58 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
petm1 wrote:How far from here are we?
You mean to say how far from here, are you? And to answer that question I'd first have to know where you are. You cannot possibly ask that question because we are not together, if we were together however, I would answer 'zero.' As we would in fact be zero any measurement from there. OK maybe the distance between us would have to be considered, as 'here' then might be a point equally between us or encompass the entire area we cover. It would all depend upon ones intended resolution.

If you can not see that when you use the word 'here' it is always about the present,
Not at all, I live over here, while you live over there, which has nothing necessarily to do with time at all, it's about geographic location. The next thing you'll try and sell me is that a Lat/Long is a position in time. No it's a geographic location. If you and I were standing in front of a globe of the earth, and I said the epicenter was over 'here' at this Lat/Long and this Elevation, surely it would have absolutely nothing to do with time. Until I said that it had occurred at exactly 2137 Zulu. No, listen up, not 'now,' it was at time 2137 Zulu. Sheesh, some people just never listen! Or have no concept of 'place' and 'time.'

like " "She is there now." marks a present moment even if you do not put the now in the sentence,
Not in the least, as the inclusion of 'both' 'there' and 'now' contextually can only mean that one is speaking of both a geographical location and a time.

"Put the pen here." means now unless you qualify with a different time,
That is certainly not the case, as the employer knows full well that I must first visit the big box lumber supply, to acquire the necessary, tools, hardware and lumber. Here was clearly the geographic location, as later could only be the ambiguous time that I should begin, once I returned. And you can bet that I shall surely take my time at the lumber supply. Lunch, anyone? And I'll sue if he whines, because he left out the time.

then I guess we will just have to leave it here between us.
Not at all, it was never over 'there,' while it was always over 'here.' It's just taking you a very long 'time' to wake up and smell the coffee! ;)

Here we are both on the Earth, but then again here today, gone tomorrow. By the way just try to find your position without using time. If you put that pen here, on my desk, it will happen in time for even my desk is temporal only existing for a short time let alone its "relative" position. Don't be fooled into thinking that relative position is a stand alone concept without time, and here is always a present tense for we still use it to announce our presence, I am Here.

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