Where is "here"?

So what's really going on?

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:33 pm

Obvious Leo wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:The Morris Minor, although small was higher than modern cars.
I owned one briefly in a previous life but I treated it unkindly and it fell to bits.
Wonderful little cars, but I always preferred the A35.

Image

Tiny and perfect.

raw_thought
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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by raw_thought » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:10 am

Obvious Leo wrote:
PoeticUniverse wrote: “Quantum monads—bits with various states of what we might call energy or just levels. The ‘it’ of reality comes from ‘bit’, via an information process.”
It seems you got my clarification about the no background state for the gravity/time continuum. Neither Newton's flat space nor Einstein's geometric one is needed for a presentist ontology but this is not an easy procedure of thought to translate into words because our observational experience is of the hologram of a no longer existent past. We live in time's wake, which makes the Libet story a statement of the bloody obvious as well.
Hologram = a human narrative!
Now you are saying that Libet shows a principle of physics??? Well OK, in the sense that biological systems are physical. But Libet's experiments were about physiology not QM.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by raw_thought » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:11 am

I have nothing against human narratives. My point is that you do and yet rely on them all the time.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by Obvious Leo » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:25 am

Skip wrote:Best hijack of a thread. EVER.
It's a hijack, skip, and there's not much point in denying it, because PU and I are a tag team who go back a long way. However it's not off-topic because "where is here?" is a profound metaphysical question which deserves an answer. In the eternalism of the spacetime paradigm "here" is everywhere but in the presentism of the ontology which underpins this spacetime epistemology "here" is nowhere. Here is now and now is that which is continuously being made.

Essentially Heisenberg was not saying anything different than what Newton was saying and this is the unification of physics. The motion of every physical entity in the universe affects the motion of every other so there is no such thing as a location. This was Gottfried Leibniz's truth and it was both Galileo's and Poincare's relativity but somehow it got lost in the Minkowski translation and after that we finished up with random events, reverse causation, dead and alive cats and fuck knows what else. As they say, shit happens, and that shit happens is the most profound truth in the entire universe.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by raw_thought » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:29 am

Actually, here is everywhere in the sense that where you are is where you are. No matter where I am I can always say,"I am here"!

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by Obvious Leo » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:34 am

raw_thought wrote:But Libet's experiments were about physiology not QM.
Bullshit. For a start QM can tell us NOTHING about reality and Libet's experiments were about the nature of consciousness. These experiments demonstrate that consciousness is a PROCESS and that processes take time.

"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent"....Ludwig Wittgenstein.
raw_thought wrote:I have nothing against human narratives. My point is that you do and yet rely on them all the time.
You can't understand the cosmic narrative without first understanding the human one. Existence is an evolutionary journey from the simple to the complex. What is true for a single human mind is true for all of reality.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by raw_thought » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:55 am

It is bullshit that Libet's experiments were about physiology not QM??? I think you love the word "bullshit" and attacking me more then rational discourse. From what you wrote, it seems that you agree with me!!! Libet had nothing to do with QM!

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by raw_thought » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:59 am

Obvious Leo wrote:
Skip wrote:Best hijack of a thread. EVER.
It's a hijack, skip, and there's not much point in denying it, because PU and I are a tag team who go back a long way. However it's not off-topic because "where is here?" is a profound metaphysical question which deserves an answer. In the eternalism of the spacetime paradigm "here" is everywhere but in the presentism of the ontology which underpins this spacetime epistemology "here" is nowhere. Here is now and now is that which is continuously being made.

Essentially Heisenberg was not saying anything different than what Newton was saying and this is the unification of physics. The motion of every physical entity in the universe affects the motion of every other so there is no such thing as a location. This was Gottfried Leibniz's truth and it was both Galileo's and Poincare's relativity but somehow it got lost in the Minkowski translation and after that we finished up with random events, reverse causation, dead and alive cats and fuck knows what else. As they say, shit happens, and that shit happens is the most profound truth in the entire universe.
Good grief! You went back and edited out the Libet comment! You were trying to relate Libet to Heisnberg.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by raw_thought » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:03 am

Obvious Leo wrote:
PoeticUniverse wrote: “Quantum monads—bits with various states of what we might call energy or just levels. The ‘it’ of reality comes from ‘bit’, via an information process.”
It seems you got my clarification about the no background state for the gravity/time continuum. Neither Newton's flat space nor Einstein's geometric one is needed for a presentist ontology but this is not an easy procedure of thought to translate into words because our observational experience is of the hologram of a no longer existent past. We live in time's wake, which makes the Libet story a statement of the bloody obvious as well.
Sorry, wrong post!!! Here is where you tried to combine Libet with some "time wave wake" theory.
Sorry, you did not edit. My bad!

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by raw_thought » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:27 am

Libet's experiment was not about "time wakes" or any physics. His experiment "only" showed that we make decisions before we are aware of them.
In other words our brains make decisions and then our minds make up a story about how we consciously decided to do something.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by Obvious Leo » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:59 am

raw_thought wrote:Libet's experiment was not about "time wakes" or any physics. His experiment "only" showed that we make decisions before we are aware of them.
In other words our brains make decisions and then our minds make up a story about how we consciously decided to do something.
Essentially yes. However you haven't understood the point I was making with respect to the nature of time. Consciousness is a process and awareness is an observation of a process. As a statement of the bloody obvious we can't observe something until after it has already occurred which means we can't be aware of making a choice until after we've already made it. There's nothing particularly odd or mysterious about that but the "wake of time" comment referred to the speed at which the present moment becomes its own next moment which is in fact the speed of light. When one single electron in your entire embodied mind jumps into a different orbit you are no longer physically the same person which means you are becoming a new you at the speed of light. You are yourself becoming.

You are made of matter and energy no different from any other physical entity in the universe so what is true for you must be true for everything, including the universe itself. Just as you are yourself becoming so is the universe itself becoming and this represents a profoundly different way of thinking the world than that offered by spacetime physics. This is in fact the ToE and it makes every single paradox and counter-intuitive absurdity thrown up by 100 years of physics simply vanish. This is a universe which a child could understand.

'it should be possible to explain the universe to a barmaid".....Albert Einstein

'The Universe will ultimately reveal itself to be an entity of the most sublime austerity"....John Archibald Wheeler

It's simple Boolean austerity would bring a tear to your eye, Jack.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by Obvious Leo » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:35 am

A Klein bottle is a lucky find on a Polynesian beach, PU, where hairy coconuts are more commonly found between the beer cans, used condoms and cigarette butts. Do you by any chance still have it in your possession, mate, because I can't seem to get those silk pajamas out of my head?

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:58 am

raw_thought wrote:It is bullshit that Libet's experiments were about physiology not QM??? I think you love the word "bullshit" and attacking me more then rational discourse. From what you wrote, it seems that you agree with me!!! Libet had nothing to do with QM!
That is not to say that his experiment is not relevant to QM. If the claim that neurones and consciousness work on a Quantum level then Libet is very relevant indeed.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by PoeticUniverse » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:28 am

Obvious Leo wrote:A Klein bottle is a lucky find on a Polynesian beach, PU, where hairy coconuts are more commonly found between the beer cans, used condoms and cigarette butts. Do you by any chance still have it in your possession, mate, because I can't seem to get those silk pajamas out of my head?
In the mind of a head is where 'thing's are, silky smooth, as the answer to the ultimate quiz, we having dispensed with 'there' and also the Wiz.

The bottle can found in the aboriginal 'dream'; there are many lovely djinnis inside, as intelligent spirits with a rank just below the angels. it is north of your stomach and south of your hair. Don't worry about the ants southwest of your right leg.

I wonder if I can eek out any more poetic adventures as an end to my story.

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Re: Where is "here"?

Post by Obvious Leo » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:54 am

PoeticUniverse wrote:I wonder if I can eek out any more poetic adventures as an end to my story.
PoeticUniverse wrote:The bottle can found in the aboriginal 'dream';
You might consider the story of the Pitjanjatjara man who walked the big brown land for nearly 60,000 years whilst barely putting a mark on it. He knew the truth of time in his dreaming and needed no Anaximander or Charles Darwin to tell it to him. He didn't know he was the dust of stars but he knew he was the dust of stuff which came before and would be the dust of stuff to come after. He knew about the journey of himself enfolded within the journey of everything that is and most especially he knew that not is NOT.

Pitjanjatjara man he knows truths which equations man knows not.

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