## Poincare!

So what's really going on?

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raw_thought
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### Poincare!

" If we knew exactly the laws of nature and the situation of the universe at the initial moment, we could predict exactly the situation of the same universe at a succeeding moment."
Henri Poincare
Lets suppose his materialistic determinism is correct.
1. If we knew everything about how a coin will be tossed (wind etc) we could predict with absolute certainty if it would be heads or tails.
2. Therefore, probability is a measure of our ignorance.
3. However, it isn't! Probability is an objective mathematical calculation.
Probability is a measure of our subjective understanding and an objective fact!!! Does simplistic materialistic determinism dove tail with quantum mechanics?
Ginkgo
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### Re: Poincare!

raw_thought wrote:" If we knew exactly the laws of nature and the situation of the universe at the initial moment, we could predict exactly the situation of the same universe at a succeeding moment."
Henri Poincare
Lets suppose his materialistic determinism is correct.
1. If we knew everything about how a coin will be tossed (wind etc) we could predict with absolute certainty if it would be heads or tails.
2. Therefore, probability is a measure of our ignorance.
3. However, it isn't! Probability is an objective mathematical calculation.
Probability is a measure of our subjective understanding and an objective fact!!! Does simplistic materialistic determinism dove tail with quantum mechanics?
If the Hameroff/Penrose thesis is correct (Orchor_OR) thesis is correct then determinism is at odd with free will.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra ... _reduction

Please note the wiki article doesn't deal with indeterminism per se when it comes to quantum mechanics.

P.S

In my view the implications of the Hameroff/Penrose thesis is the best argument we have to date for free will.
hammock
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### Re: Poincare!

raw_thought wrote:"If we knew exactly the laws of nature and the situation of the universe at the initial moment, we could predict exactly the situation of the same universe at a succeeding moment." Henri Poincare

Yes, Henri, there are no anomalies. Scientists have examined all the countless light-years of space, at all levels from the Planck scale to the macrocosmic scale, throughout time since the Big Bang; and empirically / experimentally demonstrated that every event, no matter how seemingly trivial, is inescapably subsumed under a rigid invisible hand (i.e., regulated by laws and principles which brook no indeterminate options). It was not a mere intellectually-outputted presupposition or a working assumption for proceeding. Also: "By gosh, even if FITB was impossible to confirm, we still know it's a fact!"--Zeke Imperikal
Harry J. Gensler wrote:Consider empiricists who claim to know this to be true: 'There is no synthetic a priori knowledge.' This statement itself would have to represent synthetic a priori knowledge. For the statement is synthetic (it is not true by virtue of how we defined the terms 'synthetic' and 'a priori'—and it is not self-contradictory to deny). And it would have to be known a priori (since surely we cannot know it on the basis of sense experience). So the empiricists' claim would be synthetic a priori knowledge—the very thing it rejects." [THE A TO Z OF LOGIC]
attofishpi
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### Re: Poincare!

raw_thought wrote:" If we knew exactly the laws of nature and the situation of the universe at the initial moment, we could predict exactly the situation of the same universe at a succeeding moment."
Henri Poincare
Lets suppose his materialistic determinism is correct.
1. If we knew everything about how a coin will be tossed (wind etc) we could predict with absolute certainty if it would be heads or tails.
2. Therefore, probability is a measure of our ignorance.
3. However, it isn't! Probability is an objective mathematical calculation.
Probability is a measure of our subjective understanding and an objective fact!!! Does simplistic materialistic determinism dove tail with quantum mechanics?
Good post...the three points make sense. Point 3. being an objective mathematical calculation still sits with the prior two points. All we are admitting at point 3. is that we dont have all the prerequisites (all the data) to know what the answer will be...which is more often the case with anything in life, hence probability.
Having probability as an objective mathematical calculation does not make the answer certain.