Is Hegel Still Relevant?

So what's really going on?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

David Handeye
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:39 pm
Location: Italia

Re: Is Hegel Still Relevant?

Post by David Handeye » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:31 pm

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:From what you tell me his definition of rational is just a species following it's own instincts and behavoirs, a species following the bounds of it's own reality. From what you tell me, it sounds like if a can of tomatoes were sentient, he say that the tomatoes were rational as well.

If that's not what you or he meant, I suggest clarifying yourself.
Not a can of tomatoes is rational, a can of tomatoes exists. Its objective idea is rational. Hegel was an absolute idealist, if you don't understand this you can't understand hegelianism, that is the identity between Reason and reality. Reason (rational) is real because it is implemented in reality in concrete forms; it does not remain an abstract concept, an ideal, but it is found in the real world because every fact developing in reality has the reason for its occurrence. On the other hand all that exists (the real) is a concrete manifestation of Reason; in reality, in fact, there is no place for something that is not thought, since each event follows a rational structure, unconsciously in nature, consciously in humanity. There is no contrast and even difference between Reason and reality: what happens is right, it is logical and natural to happen. That's all.

User avatar
GreatandWiseTrixie
Posts: 1547
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Is Hegel Still Relevant?

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:47 pm

David Handeye wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:From what you tell me his definition of rational is just a species following it's own instincts and behavoirs, a species following the bounds of it's own reality. From what you tell me, it sounds like if a can of tomatoes were sentient, he say that the tomatoes were rational as well.

If that's not what you or he meant, I suggest clarifying yourself.
Not a can of tomatoes is rational, a can of tomatoes exists. Its objective idea is rational. Hegel was an absolute idealist, if you don't understand this you can't understand hegelianism, that is the identity between Reason and reality. Reason (rational) is real because it is implemented in reality in concrete forms; it does not remain an abstract concept, an ideal, but it is found in the real world because every fact developing in reality has the reason for its occurrence. On the other hand all that exists (the real) is a concrete manifestation of Reason; in reality, in fact, there is no place for something that is not thought, since each event follows a rational structure, unconsciously in nature, consciously in humanity. There is no contrast and even difference between Reason and reality: what happens is right, it is logical and natural to happen. That's all.
Hmm I get that, sounds like the causality argument. Only my twist is this - everything that happens is wrong.

mikesutton161
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:50 pm

Re: Is Hegel Still Relevant?

Post by mikesutton161 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:41 am

The Voice of Time wrote:
mikesutton161 wrote: and Popper blamed him for the rise of totalitarianism.
Do you happen to know how on Earth Popper came to that belief?

I mean, does Hegel directly empower a totalitarian ideal in any way?
There are loads of refs to this which you'll find if you Google "Hegel Popper". Singer, at http://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/19740502.htm gives a summary. Kaufmann is prominent. Not everyone agrees with Popper, of course. I was trying to work out if Hegel is worth spending time on. I decided he wasn't, but I could be quite wrong.
Last edited by mikesutton161 on Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
HexHammer
Posts: 3267
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 8:19 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Is Hegel Still Relevant?

Post by HexHammer » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:18 pm

Is Hegel Still Relevant?
No!?

User avatar
The Voice of Time
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:18 pm
Location: Trondheim

Re: Is Hegel Still Relevant?

Post by The Voice of Time » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:25 pm

mikesutton161 wrote:
The Voice of Time wrote:
mikesutton161 wrote: and Popper blamed him for the rise of totalitarianism.
Do you happen to know how on Earth Popper came to that belief?

I mean, does Hegel directly empower a totalitarian ideal in any way?
There are loads of refs to this which you'll find if you Google "Hegel Popper". Singer, at http://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/19740502.htm gives a summary. Kuuffman is prominent. Not everyone agrees with Popper, of course. I was trying to work out if Hegel is worth spending time on. I decided he wasn't, but I could be quite wrong.
I really hate it when people can't answer a simple question but instead refer you to a book, an article or a body of text.

If you are certain of your claim, plz just give me the abstract of it since you surely must know it!

User avatar
The Voice of Time
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:18 pm
Location: Trondheim

Re: Is Hegel Still Relevant?

Post by The Voice of Time » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:37 pm

As to your title question. Hegel is a man that first and foremost today offers you a perspective. I've engaged with a lot of Hegel lately in the last few months through an intensely detailed YouTube series by an American professor following him paragraph by paragraph in The Phenomenology of Spirit. Here's a link should you ever want to watch it as well: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... nkVH2Kweq2

Hegel offers you to think about a lot of things in a lot of new and intricate ways. The value of the insights, claims and discussions is more artistic than logical despite Hegel being a great logician. They expand your mind to consider how ideas move in your head, how they are subject to the world and to the relationship between themselves.

Also, Hegel is a great critic, as many philosophers are, and I certainly value his criticisms for what they mean for maturing ones mind.
Last edited by The Voice of Time on Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

David Handeye
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:39 pm
Location: Italia

Re: Is Hegel Still Relevant?

Post by David Handeye » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:00 am

I would say, "is philosophy still relevant?"
That is the question. If so, then Hegel would be the most relevant, just before Kant.

mikesutton161
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:50 pm

Re: Is Hegel Still Relevant?

Post by mikesutton161 » Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:37 pm

I really hate it when people can't answer a simple question but instead refer you to a book, an article or a body of text.

If you are certain of your claim, plz just give me the abstract of it since you surely must know it!
My claim is substantiated in the text, lower down:

"Let’s take Popper first. I assume his criticism was largely political?
Indeed it was. Critics have gone to town on Hegel’s treatment of the state and the individual, which he considered inseparable. For a collective logician, the state was the ultimate collective for society. He saw the realisation of the individual wholly in the state. He appears to say that freedom comes only via the state. He was always keen to link the institutions of modernity, whereas modern thinkers see them as disconnected, autonomous interests. According to Popper, Hegel exalts the state to such an extent that he denies that choices made against the collective laws of the state can be irrational. Popper thinks this is a justification for totalitarianism. In so far as Marx saw communism as the road to a political manifestation of spirit, and in practice this has given rise to totalitarianism in most states where it has been tried, there may be some sense in Popper’s argument. Other commentators maintain that Popper’s criticism is unduly harsh, as indeed they do for his similar criticisms of Marx and communism. The problems, they say, arise from the implementation not the principle."
I'm not sure what else you want, other than a lengthy discussion piece. This was meant to be a brief revue of the situation, not a detailed discussion. The references I gave were therefore intended to give detail on where I got the idea that Popper was a severe critic of Hegel from, and I took them to be amplification of a question I thought I had already answered in the text.
If you want to take it further, then a thorough rereading of the chapter 19 of The Open Society and Its Enemies, plus Kaufmann's review of it are necessary.

mikesutton161
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:50 pm

Re: Is Hegel Still Relevant?

Post by mikesutton161 » Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:40 pm

The Voice of Time wrote:As to your title question. Hegel is a man that first and foremost today offers you a perspective. I've engaged with a lot of Hegel lately in the last few months through an intensely detailed YouTube series by an American professor following him paragraph by paragraph in The Phenomenology of Spirit. Here's a link should you ever want to watch it as well: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... nkVH2Kweq2

Hegel offers you to think about a lot of things in a lot of new and intricate ways. The value of the insights, claims and discussions is more artistic than logical despite Hegel being a great logician. They expand your mind to consider how ideas move in your head, how they are subject to the world and to the relationship between themselves.

Also, Hegel is a great critic, as many philosophers are, and I certainly value his criticisms for what they mean for maturing ones mind.
Thank for this helpful message. I've briefly looked at the videos and the look extremely useful. I hope to give them some attention in the coming months.

mikesutton161
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:50 pm

Re: Is Hegel Still Relevant?

Post by mikesutton161 » Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:05 pm

David Handeye wrote:I think Hegel's main lesson's just each philosopher and each philosophy are relevant. For they are a necessary step to the development of human thought, a not casual process but needful for Reason. You have not mentioned Reason, at all; which is the most relevant argument in hegelianism. He thought reality was rational, that is reality is not accidental, only substantial is real: in other words a man is a man despite his skin color, his religious belief, political orientation, his social class.
A more relevant question could have been, instead, Is Hegel still to be considered a reactionary?
First of all, sorry to be so long responding to your comment of 6 March. My excuse is I didn't notice that you were addressing me in the middle of several exchanges with Trixie.

I did mention reason a couple of times. I said: "Why does reason prevail? Because we naturally seek society, and become acculturated. People who are not attached to one another seek attachment, emotional or intellectual. There is a coming together. The whole assimilates the parts. Human society creates cultural products (stories, dramas etc.) which reflect patterns of life and common perceptions and cognitions." And later:"He is trying to combine essence and appearance. He tries to do it because he thinks that what is ultimately real is mental, making him another kind of idealist. The collective mind, or the mind of God, all the same thing to a pantheist, will eventually draw all entities together in complete reason."

This, I think, goes along with your comment that only reality is rational, not accidental and only the substantial is real.

Hegel saw freedom not as free choice but as us taking control,of the forces that control us. We can all reason, and over time a community can be built not on conflict and mutual alienation but on a rational basis. Self interest will dissolve in a process of cooperation. Rationality is the real, and we work towards a rational society in which we are truly free.

The question is, can you believe it?

David Handeye
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:39 pm
Location: Italia

Re: Is Hegel Still Relevant?

Post by David Handeye » Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:09 pm

mikesutton161 wrote:First of all, sorry to be so long responding to your comment of 6 March. My excuse is I didn't notice that you were addressing me in the middle of several exchanges with Trixie.

I did mention reason a couple of times. I said: "Why does reason prevail? Because we naturally seek society, and become acculturated. People who are not attached to one another seek attachment, emotional or intellectual. There is a coming together. The whole assimilates the parts. Human society creates cultural products (stories, dramas etc.) which reflect patterns of life and common perceptions and cognitions." And later:"He is trying to combine essence and appearance. He tries to do it because he thinks that what is ultimately real is mental, making him another kind of idealist. The collective mind, or the mind of God, all the same thing to a pantheist, will eventually draw all entities together in complete reason."

This, I think, goes along with your comment that only reality is rational, not accidental and only the substantial is real.

Hegel saw freedom not as free choice but as us taking control,of the forces that control us. We can all reason, and over time a community can be built not on conflict and mutual alienation but on a rational basis. Self interest will dissolve in a process of cooperation. Rationality is the real, and we work towards a rational society in which we are truly free.

The question is, can you believe it?
Yes, that is the question. If you are an idealist, that is. But nowadays people tend to undervalue the term idealist, being idealist actually implies all that you wrote, and there you must have a lot of courage, or perhaps of uncounsciousness.

You have not to excuse, actually I have to excuse for haven't seen your references about reason.

I always thought you may really understand Hegel's thought only if you are able to enter his mind, only if you are able to look at the world by his eyes, then anything in his philosophy will come out so clearly, logical, and you see there's nothing left to case, but anything acquires meaning. One of the rare genius, in spite of his personal figure, ignorant, self-absorbed and full of himself.
But, maybe he was right, when he used to say «you may really be free only if anybody is».

Rick
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:59 pm

Re: Is Hegel Still Relevant?

Post by Rick » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:27 pm

Of all the great philosophers, Hegel is one of the most difficult to understand, and, at least by some philosophers, one of the most despised. Russell and Schopenhauer thought that his philosophy was devoid of any useful meaning, and Popper blamed him for the rise of totalitarianism.

Popper is a blatant Positivist, so what he may have thought about Hegel is not of concern to me as an anti-Positivist. But I have a most interesting quote from the book, "Individuation and the Absolute-Hegel, Jung and the Path toward Wholeness," by Sean Kelly: "Along with the discrimination between ego and other, nature and spirit, comes the consciousness of the moral opposites of good and evil. For Hegel, the principle of evil is inherent in consciousness itself, 'for knowledge or consciousness is the only act through which separation is posited at all -negation, evil, and cleavage, the more specific categories involved in being-for-self as such'" (Op. Cit., page 134). Kant seems to have felt more strongly about evil with his notion of "das radikal Bose."

bolso66
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: Is Hegel Still Relevant?

Post by bolso66 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:10 pm

Hi, I have read about the progression of consciousness through the various stages down to absolute Spirit, and I am baffled cause I see
none of it in real life. Most of the people are stuck in their daily affairs and there is no hint of basic progress, let alone aiming at absolute knowledge. Anyone knows where Hegel deals with this very basic observation?

Melchior
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:20 pm

Re: Is Hegel Still Relevant?

Post by Melchior » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:32 am

Never was.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests