Universe can't be infinite.

So what's really going on?

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Atla
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Atla »

devans99 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:21 am I believe Actual Infinity to be impossible so an actually infinite multiverse(?) is impossible. It would have to be a multiverse of finite size for me.

There is also a problem with any multiverse. All the other universes will statistically look like this one. We have a sample size of one saying so (our universe). Also, all universes end up at the same density/pressure so they all look alike in terms of forces/particles. IE the multiverse and all universes look designed.

And finally, if we live in a multiverse, there is an argument that any multiverse would of been designed by God.

So I am still stuck on:
- God seems to be required
- Eternalism seems to be true
- The two are seemingly incompatible
Why would actual infinity be impossible?

The vast majority of other universes wouldn't look similar to this one. Most of the possible configurations might not even form what we would call a universe.

And the multiverse doesn't need to be designed by God, the multiverse just is, that's the point. (But of course believers will insist that a multiverse must be created by God too.)
devans99
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 »

Atla wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:27 am Why would actual infinity be impossible?

The vast majority of other universes wouldn't look similar to this one. Most of the possible configurations might not even form what we would call a universe.

And the multiverse doesn't need to be designed by God, the multiverse just is, that's the point. (But of course believers will insist that a multiverse must be created by God too.)
Actual infinity, if it existed, would be a quantity greater than all other quantities, but:

There is no quantity X such that X > all other quantities because X +1 > X

Also, there is a proof via contradiction:

∞ + 1 = ∞ implies
1 = 0

But what makes you think other universes would be any different to this one?
TimeSeeker
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by TimeSeeker »

devans99 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:31 am
Atla wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:27 am Why would actual infinity be impossible?

The vast majority of other universes wouldn't look similar to this one. Most of the possible configurations might not even form what we would call a universe.

And the multiverse doesn't need to be designed by God, the multiverse just is, that's the point. (But of course believers will insist that a multiverse must be created by God too.)
Actual infinity, if it existed, would be a quantity greater than all other quantities, but:

There is no quantity X such that X > all other quantities because X +1 > X

Also, there is a proof via contradiction:

∞ + 1 = ∞ implies
1 = 0

But what makes you think other universes would be any different to this one?
You are just avoiding the contingencies in your model.

If the universe was 'cyclical' you haven't dodged the problem of infinity!

How many cycles has it been since the First Bang?
How many cycles until the Final Crunch?

Or are we to expect infinite cycles?
devans99
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 »

TimeSeeker wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:35 am You are just avoiding the contingencies in your model.

If the universe was 'cyclical' you haven't dodged the problem of infinity!

How many cycles has it been since the First Bang?
How many cycles until the Final Crunch?

Or are we to expect infinite cycles?
The universe is a finite circle in the time dimension, there is only one cycle, one big bang, one big crunch. This is the only way to avoid Actual Infinity.
I think it's likely that we live the same lives over and over again as in:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return
Atla
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Atla »

devans99 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:31 am Actual infinity, if it existed, would be a quantity greater than all other quantities, but:

There is no quantity X such that X > all other quantities because X +1 > X

Also, there is a proof via contradiction:

∞ + 1 = ∞ implies
1 = 0
Mathematical infinity isn't a quantity, it's a concept, basically unrelated to the physical world. And whether or not our universe is finite says nothing about the multiverse.
But what makes you think other universes would be any different to this one?
Well, that's what a multiverse means usually. Different amounts of matter, different configurations, different constants, different physical laws etc. in the various universes. And "universes" might just be a subset of all possible configurations anyway.
TimeSeeker
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by TimeSeeker »

devans99 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:40 am
TimeSeeker wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:35 am You are just avoiding the contingencies in your model.

If the universe was 'cyclical' you haven't dodged the problem of infinity!

How many cycles has it been since the First Bang?
How many cycles until the Final Crunch?

Or are we to expect infinite cycles?
The universe is a finite circle in the time dimension, there is only one cycle, one big bang, one big crunch. This is the only way to avoid Actual Infinity.
I think it's likely that we live the same lives over and over again as in:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return
A "finite circle" is called a skew line.

Circles are closed forms.
devans99
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 »

Atla wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:41 am Mathematical infinity isn't a quantity, it's a concept, basically unrelated to the physical world. And whether or not our universe is finite says nothing about the multiverse.
But what makes you think other universes would be any different to this one?
Well, that's what a multiverse means usually. Different amounts of matter, different configurations, different constants, different physical laws etc. in the various universes. And "universes" might just be a subset of all possible configurations anyway.
Because infinity is not a quantity, real life physical things like the size of the universe, the age of the universe; these are quantities so they are never equal to actual infinity (because its not a quantity). Hence the multiverse would be finite in size.

I doubt the received wisdom on other universes being different to this one. I see no reason why they would not be the same as this one; IE all fine-tuned for life by a creator/designer of some sort.
Atla
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Atla »

devans99 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:46 am Because infinity is not a quantity, real life physical things like the size of the universe, the age of the universe; these are quantities so they are never equal to actual infinity (because its not a quantity). Hence the multiverse would be finite in size.
That doesn't follow at all. Mathemathical infinity is a concept, but that doesn't mean that the physical universe can't actually be infinite (I don't think it is, but there may be no certain way to tell).
I doubt the received wisdom on other universes being different to this one. I see no reason why they would not be the same as this one; IE all fine-tuned for life by a creator/designer of some sort.
What received wisdom, why should universes be fine-tuned for life? Maybe you simply want to go with the God explanation.
devans99
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 »

Atla wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:54 am
devans99 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:46 am Because infinity is not a quantity, real life physical things like the size of the universe, the age of the universe; these are quantities so they are never equal to actual infinity (because its not a quantity). Hence the multiverse would be finite in size.
That doesn't follow at all. Mathemathical infinity is a concept, but that doesn't mean that the physical universe can't actually be infinite (I don't think it is, but there may be no certain way to tell).
A concept cannot take on real life values. For example:
Size of universe = 'Empathy'
Age of universe = 'Love'

Quantities are not concepts. Size/Age of universe must be finite quantities.

Infinity goes on 'forever'; how is that possible in the material world? It's akin to belief in magic IMO.

Infinity is an illogical concept (see Hilbert's Hotel etc...) and the material world is logical thus we should not expect to see infinity in the material world.
Atla wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:54 am
I doubt the received wisdom on other universes being different to this one. I see no reason why they would not be the same as this one; IE all fine-tuned for life by a creator/designer of some sort.
What received wisdom, why should universes be fine-tuned for life? Maybe you simply want to go with the God explanation.
Well the whole multiverse story was created by scientists to give a natural explanation for why the universe appears to be fine-tuned for life:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe

From my perspective, it all seems a bit crazy. Why not just accept that the universe was fine-tuned for life by some sort of creator instead of fabricating a very complex and unlikely story with multiple universes all in different configurations. It's hardly the Occam's Razor solution is it?
Atla
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Atla »

devans99 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:04 pmA concept cannot take on real life values. For example:
Size of universe = 'Empathy'
Age of universe = 'Love'

Quantities are not concepts. Size/Age of universe must be finite quantities.

Infinity goes on 'forever'; how is that possible in the material world? It's akin to belief in magic IMO.

Infinity is an illogical concept (see Hilbert's Hotel etc...) and the material is logical thus we should not expect to see infinity in the material world.
You're not saying anything. We can't tell for certain whether or not the material world goes on forever or not. It doesn't have to be logical to us.
Well the whole multiverse story was created by scientists to give a natural explanation for why the universe appears to be fine-tuned for life:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe

From my perspective, it all seems a bit crazy. Why not just accept that the universe was fine-tuned for life by some sort of creator instead of fabricating a very complex and unlikely story with multiple universes all in different configurations. It's hardly the Occam's Razor solution is it?
Then you will have to answer why the creator is there. Either it evolved or whatever, which may imply a multiverse again. Or the answer is simply Magic, end there is no scientific reason to believe in magic.
The Multiverse idea is excessive, but it's actually favoured by Occam's razor.
devans99
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 »

Atla wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:19 pm You're not saying anything. We can't tell for certain whether or not the material world goes on forever or not. It doesn't have to be logical to us.
Reality is a far as we can tell, deeply logical. Infinity is deeply illogical. Would we expect then to find infinity in reality?

Actual Infinity is not part of maths (despite what set theory says) and maths reflects reality. So again, infinity should not be part of reality.

I think actual infinity is a magical, irrational belief so that the burden of proof should be on those who believe in it.
Atla
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Atla »

devans99 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:25 pm
Atla wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:19 pm You're not saying anything. We can't tell for certain whether or not the material world goes on forever or not. It doesn't have to be logical to us.
Reality is a far as we can tell, deeply logical. Infinity is deeply illogical. Would we expect then to find infinity in reality?

Actual Infinity is not part of maths (despite what set theory says) and maths reflects reality. So again, infinity should not be part of reality.

I think actual infinity is a magical, irrational belief so that the burden of proof should be on those who believe in it.
All we can say is that the observable universe seems to behave perfectly logically. We can't tell what's beyond the observable universe. Maybe it goes on forever, maybe it doesn't.
TimeSeeker
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by TimeSeeker »

devans99 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:25 pm
Atla wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:19 pm You're not saying anything. We can't tell for certain whether or not the material world goes on forever or not. It doesn't have to be logical to us.
Reality is a far as we can tell, deeply logical. Infinity is deeply illogical. Would we expect then to find infinity in reality?

Actual Infinity is not part of maths (despite what set theory says) and maths reflects reality. So again, infinity should not be part of reality.

I think actual infinity is a magical, irrational belief so that the burden of proof should be on those who believe in it.
nonsense.

ASPECTS of reality may be logical. Reality as a whole - is not!

The fact that all of our models break down at the extremes (really small scale AND really large scale) speaks of model error to me.

Is a par for the course. ALL models have edge/corner cases. All models have 'domains of applicability'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corner_case
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_case

The universe doesn't have 'domains'. That's why all of our models are wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong

The burden of proof for 'infinity' is on those who USE it. You use it in limits.
devans99
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 »

Atla wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:31 pm
devans99 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:25 pm
Atla wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:19 pm You're not saying anything. We can't tell for certain whether or not the material world goes on forever or not. It doesn't have to be logical to us.
Reality is a far as we can tell, deeply logical. Infinity is deeply illogical. Would we expect then to find infinity in reality?

Actual Infinity is not part of maths (despite what set theory says) and maths reflects reality. So again, infinity should not be part of reality.

I think actual infinity is a magical, irrational belief so that the burden of proof should be on those who believe in it.
All we can say is that the observable universe seems to behave perfectly logically. We can't tell what's beyond the observable universe. Maybe it goes on forever, maybe it doesn't.
The universe is expanding so it cannot be infinite in space else there would be nowhere to expand to. Infinity is the problem: it's larger than any possible thing. Yet we require it to expand; implying it was not larger than any possible thing. Also, the universe started with the Big Bang 14 Billion years ago and has been expanding since then; it must have a finite radius.
TimeSeeker
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by TimeSeeker »

devans99 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:34 pm The universe is expanding so it cannot be infinite in space else there would be nowhere to expand to. Infinity is the problem: it's larger than any possible thing. Yet we require it to expand; implying it was not larger than any possible thing. Also, the universe started with the Big Bang 14 Billion years ago and has been expanding since then; it must have a finite radius.
You keep abandoning the mathematical truth and keep relying on your conceptual (instinctive) 'truth'.

If the universe is accelerating its expansion at SOME point it will be expanding faster than the speed of light.
Sooooo. That 'limit' you spoke about speed = distance/time. Is it real or....?

That is. You keep SHIFTING REFERENCE FRAMES.

You are being inconsistent.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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