You create your own reality? A proof

So what's really going on?

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: You create your own reality? A proof

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

HexHammer wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
HexHammer wrote:It's kinda pathetic to dismiss the WHOLE psychology aspect just because 1 tiny bit is wrong, and that point is made mostly by fanatical religous people while in the rest of the sane world, it's either learned, or genetics.

Scientific studies has existed over 30 years that clearly concludes it's NOT a disease, get over youself.
I never did. I said psychology was the lesser of two evils.

And duh of course it's not a disease. The trend of psychiatry is this -

Psychiatry makes absurd claims. Psychiatry makes diagnosis on absurd claims. Then science has to prove psychiatry wrong. Then psychiatry will change views about the old claims and make a new version with more absurd claims that science has to prove wrong, yet again.
Weather or not it's the less of the 2 evils, you still made the absurd claim that homosexuallity is a disease, end of story!

No, it's not psychiatry as much in itself, as it's more incompetent people making bad diagnosis.
I never said homosexuality was a disease. Seems like reading comprehension has gone the wayside these days.

I said the psychiatric industry said homosexuality was a disease. Thought it was obvious, but everyone's walking around with poles up their butts these days.

And the incompetent people are the people who write the psychiatric manuals, so yeah I'd say psychiatric industry is itself to blame
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HexHammer
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Re: You create your own reality? A proof

Post by HexHammer »

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:I never said homosexuality was a disease. Seems like reading comprehension has gone the wayside these days.

I said the psychiatric industry said homosexuality was a disease. Thought it was obvious, but everyone's walking around with poles up their butts these days.

And the incompetent people are the people who write the psychiatric manuals, so yeah I'd say psychiatric industry is itself to blame
You used it as an argument, that is just as pathetic as saying it. The difference is the same.
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: You create your own reality? A proof

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

HexHammer wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:I never said homosexuality was a disease. Seems like reading comprehension has gone the wayside these days.

I said the psychiatric industry said homosexuality was a disease. Thought it was obvious, but everyone's walking around with poles up their butts these days.

And the incompetent people are the people who write the psychiatric manuals, so yeah I'd say psychiatric industry is itself to blame
You used it as an argument, that is just as pathetic as saying it. The difference is the same.
No it's not, that's ridiculous. I used it as an argument to discredit them? How does that make me pathetic, and not them? If I point out that someone is a racist, by this logic it would seem that pointing out racism is an act of racism.
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HexHammer
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Re: You create your own reality? A proof

Post by HexHammer »

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
HexHammer wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:I never said homosexuality was a disease. Seems like reading comprehension has gone the wayside these days.

I said the psychiatric industry said homosexuality was a disease. Thought it was obvious, but everyone's walking around with poles up their butts these days.

And the incompetent people are the people who write the psychiatric manuals, so yeah I'd say psychiatric industry is itself to blame
You used it as an argument, that is just as pathetic as saying it. The difference is the same.
No it's not, that's ridiculous. I used it as an argument to discredit them? How does that make me pathetic, and not them? If I point out that someone is a racist, by this logic it would seem that pointing out racism is an act of racism.
You really are 1 of those scary examples of people not aware of what they are really saying. Please just shut up and stop polluting this topic.
reasonvemotion
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Re: You create your own reality? A proof

Post by reasonvemotion »

Trixie wrote:
I never said homosexuality was a disease. Seems like reading comprehension has gone the wayside these days.

I said the psychiatric industry said homosexuality was a disease. Thought it was obvious, but everyone's walking around with poles up their butts these days.

And the incompetent people are the people who write the psychiatric manuals, so yeah I'd say psychiatric industry is itself to blame

Homosexuality is not listed in the DSM.
cladking
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Re: You create your own reality? A proof

Post by cladking »

otiosedodge wrote: Well, it comes down to the fact that once we get rid of this urge to classify in a digital manner, through a sort of conceptual bootstrapping, we realize that we are the entire universe.

This is the source of the logical error. You have assumed the conclusion here.

Indeed, the error goes all the way back to your first grade teacher or the letter "A". In reality the teacher used her knowledge and muscle memory to create lines of chalk dust on a black surface. She did not create nor draw the letter "A". She produced a visual representation of the concept of the letter "A". It went wrong even sooner because we are taught that we think therefore we exist. This is the true source of the problem of our disconnect from reality.

The simplest way to state the problem is that modern language hides its own existence and hence its true role in human affairs. It is not thought that creates our existence but language which gives us the tools to think of it. "We exist therefore we think". Language is the root of human progress and the vast unconscious knowledge of each individual human. Reality doesn't cease to exist or is in any way affected by our thoughts so far as is known. Language simply hides reality because we must see it through the filter of language.

Things in nature are analog and the way humans and all animals are made is analog. Modern language simply hides the analog mind which we only access in stage 3 sleep now days.
Buddhist guy
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Re: You create your own reality? A proof

Post by Buddhist guy »

tbieter wrote:Do certain aspects of philosophy appeal to mentally ill people?

I recall reading about research on the relationship between mentally ill students and the study of psychology in college. The mentally ill high school grad would start college and discover the discipline of psychology. He or she would start taking courses, hoping to find help for her personal mental conflicts. Her quest would become a major in the subject and she would graduate with a degree in the field. She would enter the practice of psychology. However, in due course her untreated mental illness would manifest its existence in dysfuctional behavior such as substance abuse, divorce, child abuse, crime, etc. The research concluded that there was a high correlation between the practice of psychology and mental illness.

Does the same relation exist between the philosopher and mental illness?

I searched for "mental illness" in my digital subscription to Philosophy Now:

https://philosophynow.org/issues/99/Doe ... _Normality
https://philosophynow.org/issues/29/A_P ... A_Delusion
https://philosophynow.org/issues/26/Ber ... mmentaries
https://philosophynow.org/issues/20/Prozac_cogitation
https://philosophynow.org/issues/91/Melancholia

https://philosophynow.org/issues/66/Me_ ... o_told_you
"Paranoia is the delusion that other people are watching you and are out to get you. Of course, if people really are watching you and really are out to get you, then it isn’t paranoia. Paranoia is a form of self-deception. Sometimes it arises as a symptom of a mental illness, in which case its treatment is a matter for psychiatry, not philosophy. Sometimes it arises because of a mistaken view of the world; and in this form it afflicts both individuals and societies. This latter kind of paranoia is one that philosophy can perhaps help with, as philosophers have argued so much over relevant questions such as ‘What can we know?’ and also undertakes the clarification of confusing concepts such as ‘privacy’. John Goff does exactly this in his article. In this issue we’ll also examine some other kinds of self-deception (or so you’d like to believe). For example, Gordon Marino discusses Kierkegaard’s insights into self-deception and applies them to his own life."

https://philosophynow.org/issues/90/Add ... ilosophers
It's a fair cop. :wink:
Buddhist guy
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Re: You create your own reality? A proof

Post by Buddhist guy »

otiosedodge wrote:Hi everyone,

I've been thinking a lot recently about the following statement, which is bandied about a lot in so-called New Age circles, namely, that we create our own reality. And I think I've found a proof of this statement which is as rigorous as possible. I don't claim that it's absolute truth, because I don't think that absolute truth is within our capacity at the moment. Perhaps it never will be. But in any case, that's another issue. I simply believe that this proof is a reasonable “best guess”. I'll jump right in.

I set the argument up by making a case for the limitations of thought in capturing material reality. Thoughts, in my opinion, are digital by nature, in that they represent reality through a series of “yes” and “no” assertions. Reality, on the other hand, is analog; it ultimately has no seams other than those which we assign to it.

Let me illustrate this with two examples, one building on the other. The first is rooted in classical Buddhist philosophy, from the Madhyamaka school. Imagine you're in elementary school, and your teacher is teaching you the alphabet for the first time. He/she draws an “A” on the board, points to it, and says that it's an “A”. Now, if you're one of the students, my question is, what did you see on the board before he/she told you it was an “A”? Maybe you had the words “triangle” or “line” in your lexicon, so maybe you saw something similar to a triangle or three lines that crossed each other. In other words, you defined that slice of space (or space-time, if you're up on your physics) as a weird triangle or three lines, depending on what your toolkit of mental labels contained at that point. Because our notions of things are really just that: mental labels. They're taught to us by our parents, or whoever, and then we stick them onto pieces of reality and hold them to be what we call them. And of course, words like “pieces” and “reality” and “stick onto” are also mental labels. There's no thought that isn't a mental label, when you get right down to it.

Now for the second example, to drive the point home. Let's say you're looking at a tree. Now zoom in and look at a branch and where it springs from the tree, the bark of the tree. Here we have two distinct parts of the tree, right? The branch and the bark. Again, I hold that these are digital distinctions for an analog phenomenon. Some of you more sciency types may say that the branch and the bark are distinguishable by their different molecular structures. But I counter with this: where do we draw the line? Is there a clear dividing line between what is considered bark and what is considered branch? Nature itself certainly doesn't provide it. One merges into the other. And while we can make approximations about where that dividing line is, ultimately, we can't really measure it precisely, since on the subatomic level, everything is a question probability. So, again, as Alan Watts would say nature is “wiggly”, and everything we use to measure nature (including our thoughts, our mental categories) is ultimately “yes” or “no”, or digital.

So, how does this fit in with the assertion that we create our own reality? Well, it comes down to the fact that once we get rid of this urge to classify in a digital manner, through a sort of conceptual bootstrapping, we realize that we are the entire universe. Think of it this way: I said that nature is by definition “wiggly”, and I think I've provided ample evidence of this in the previous paragraphs. Again, I don't claim that this is gospel truth, but given the evidence, I think it's our “best guess”. So, if nature (read: the universe, which obviously includes us) is really free of mental categories, if it's seamless, then we are a part of that seamless whole. Of course our deluded thoughts about the nature of reality, the ones I stated above, are also part of that seamless whole; if we observe these thoughts, as we are obviously able to do, and don't attach any meaning to them, then they would just be energy forms. (I'm not claiming that anyone is fully capable of doing this; I think that some delusion may always be present. I'm merely showing that these thoughts can also fit into this view of reality.) That is, they are mere electromagnetic impulses in our brain, more of the seamless, spontaneous play of what we call the universe. Of course, I realize that “electromagnetic impulse” is another mental label. Language, since it's a reflection of conceptual thought, has limitations in terms of what it can describe. However, there is a possibility of “bootstrapping” here, which is what I've been trying to do so far.

In any case, back to my assertion that we are the universe. If we free ourselves, at least through logic, if not through constant practice, from the notion that the universe has any “seams”, any categories, then isn't it logical to arrive at the conclusion that we are, in fact, the universe? We're definitely a “part” of it. We're not separate from it. And if there are no real seams, no real separation, if it's all one, and we're “part” of it, then we're it. As Alan Watts would say, we're “the works”. The illusion of separation is just the result of deluded thoughts that slice and dice reality into digital “parts”.

And if you're still on board so far, then there's only one more thing to do to complete the argument. The original assertion that I was trying to prove was “you create your own reality”. I've striven to prove, so far, that we are the universe. So by simple substitution, substitute “the universe” for “you” in the statement “you create your own reality”. You get “the universe creates its own reality”. I don't think anyone can argue with that statement.

Pretty nifty, huh? :) And I really think that the applications of this are astounding. I really think it's just a question of people being convinced that they create their own reality, and overcoming the doubts (conscious and unconscious) that keep them from creating the reality that they want.

The only proviso that I would add is that everyone is the universe, and everyone has free will (my intuition), so the only real limitations of this universe-creating capacity is when it impinges on the free will of another “universe-being”.

In any case, I'd love any feedback on this. I'm still driving it into my mind, and defending it or unpacking it further (or being convinced otherwise) would definitely be beneficial.
Hi otiosedodge,

I'm tentatively flirting with this idea myself right now. I was thinking the other day about the "unpindownableness" of all things, for example a flower is only a flower from a particular mental perspective(Like your tree/bark analogy) it is equally biomatter, chemical constituents, atoms etc so it seems at best a half truth to call it a flower(indeed, all these other aspects are also only half truths). Follow this argument to it's logical conclusion and clearly nothing fundamentally exists in and of itself. I take your point about the universe creating itself. Interestingly, in all the back and forth about free will I've not noticed anyone bring up whether it even matters if we have free will or not. As you brought up, if there is no such thing as "free will" why are we bothered by "tyranny"? I feel that the answer lies in feeling constrained by imaged "objects" like nature, genes, environment, government, "mental illness" AKA a little object inside me called depression making me feel bad, rather than a particular representation of "how things are" we assume to be absolute truth/reality because humans collectively make these assumptions. We can only feel constrained if we image absolute self existent things. It seems clear to me anyway, that we live in a causal universe and that within given constraints obviously there is no such thing as "absolute free will". For example, as a child I had neither the background knowledge or personal experience to discuss this kind of stuff, but I was "free" in a relative sense to learn about and discover the world around me. It does look as though we are as "free" to create our "reality" as we are willing to face and deal with our negative mind states/delusions. That's my two cents.
Chris.
Starfall
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Re: You create your own reality? A proof

Post by Starfall »

I have criticisms about two aspects of your idea that I would like you to answer. Here goes the first:

You say that the universe is a seamless whole which has no clear divisions, and you demonstrate this by pointing out that we cannot clearly distinguish between two parts of a tree, and hence the parts themselves do not really exist; only the tree does. (Correct this part if I misunderstood it.) However, you then go on to talk about a concept of "me" or, equivalently, "you". If the universe is truly continuous and indivisible, then how do you define those words?

By your reasoning, "I" do not exist. What I think is "me" in my ignorance is, in fact, a part of the universe that cannot be separated from the rest. If I cannot separate it in any meaningful way, then my labels will also hold no meaning; so the concept of "me" is meaningless. Hence, it is impossible for me to create my own reality, because "I" do not even exist, and neither does my "free will"!

Now for the second:

You say that "the universe creates its own reality", but I am inclined to disagree with this statement because of the nature of the action of creation. The universe can "create" something about as much as a group of hydrogen atoms can. Sure, structures meaningful to us might form inside the universe, but this is nothing more than a simple arrangement of the material inside the universe. Nothing is actually being created. In my opinion, an arrangement can only be called creation is there is something that is consciously and actively trying to achieve it. This is also evident linguistically, where the verb "creation" also requires a subject. If you want to argue that the universe is able to create something, then you would say that the universe is consciously trying to arrange the material inside it in a certain manner. This would require the universe to have a will of its own. If the universe has its own will, then how is it possible for us to have our own individual one, given that we are the universe itself?

I am looking forward to your answers.
Buddhist guy
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Re: You create your own reality? A proof

Post by Buddhist guy »

Hi Starfall,
Were you speaking to me or otiosedodge? Or both? I can offer my thoughts if you wish?
Starfall
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Re: You create your own reality? A proof

Post by Starfall »

I was speaking to the OP, but I would have no qualms about hearing your thoughts as well :)
Buddhist guy
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Re: You create your own reality? A proof

Post by Buddhist guy »

Hi Starfall,
Okay here's my thoughts -
You say that the universe is a seamless whole which has no clear divisions, and you demonstrate this by pointing out that we cannot clearly distinguish between two parts of a tree, and hence the parts themselves do not really exist; only the tree does. (Correct this part if I misunderstood it.) However, you then go on to talk about a concept of "me" or, equivalently, "you". If the universe is truly continuous and indivisible, then how do you define those words?
I believe that technically the tree is not self existent either, it's only a "tree" from a certain point of view. Same with me, you etc. "I" am contextual, like "I am typing this reply, thinking about your questions, experiencing anxiety about being responsible for my own life, thinking that tomorrow/next week etc I will be a related but differing set of phenomena"
By your reasoning, "I" do not exist. What I think is "me" in my ignorance is, in fact, a part of the universe that cannot be separated from the rest. If I cannot separate it in any meaningful way, then my labels will also hold no meaning; so the concept of "me" is meaningless. Hence, it is impossible for me to create my own reality, because "I" do not even exist, and neither does my "free will"!
I guess our present spacetime coordinates(Now) define what we are now. In this sense "I" am. I see free will as an idea that arises out of our experiences of feeling controlled/constrained by things "out there". We can only be responsible for our lives if we are willing to be with our experiences as they are in each moment.(This is something I'm wrapping my own head around, I had this insight yesterday), otherwise we miss and deny aspects of our experience and project them outwards onto "objects" out there, most significantly we deny the interconnectedness of our actions to our mind states, hence things like "blaming" happen.

Here is a somewhat personal example lifted from another site. I had a breakup with a partner last year after he told me he had a one off "tryst" with another guy:

"He cheated on me with that guy because he's a selfish nob" Or -

“Who” am "I" to be angry with? The ex? the guy he had sex with? The ex's parents for continuing a causal chain of abuse from their parents and so on? Me for not recognising that buried hurt in those we love will erupt in inappropriate and damaging ways? My parents for co creating the emotional background that co created my own emotional patterns in love relationships? The homo errectus that became "self" concious back in the day and created ego conciousness? The asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs leading to the evolution of mammals and us? All there are are links in an infinite causal chain, there is no “thing” to blame so my anger is rooted in separation consciousness. Nor is my anger “wrong”, it is merely a misconception, a mistake, a kind of reductionism.

We make a big thing out of "free will" because we don't like the illusion of being separate objects that things happen to, yet the illusion itself creates that notion that things just happen to us and we are passive recipients of life. Perhaps it's fair to say nothing "creates", but I find the experience of being a agent of ones own life story is very real when lived this way.
You say that "the universe creates its own reality", but I am inclined to disagree with this statement because of the nature of the action of creation. The universe can "create" something about as much as a group of hydrogen atoms can. Sure, structures meaningful to us might form inside the universe, but this is nothing more than a simple arrangement of the material inside the universe. Nothing is actually being created. In my opinion, an arrangement can only be called creation is there is something that is consciously and actively trying to achieve it. This is also evident linguistically, where the verb "creation" also requires a subject. If you want to argue that the universe is able to create something, then you would say that the universe is consciously trying to arrange the material inside it in a certain manner. This would require the universe to have a will of its own. If the universe has its own will, then how is it possible for us to have our own individual one, given that we are the universe itself?
Very thought provoking, thank you! :) I suppose to some extent I may be viewing the universe through the lens of human values :lol: It seems to me that perspective widens one's options for how to respond to events in our lives, the less perspective we have, the less free we will experience in ourselves and our lives. In this sense, though observing our inner experiences moment by moment, we can widen our perspectives on a given situation, therefore we can behave in a more flexible, spontaneous, creative manner in response to life. This is arguably not "free will" in an abstract absolute sense or creativity, but frankly who cares. If it feels acts and is experienced as a duck, it's a duck.
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