Death

So what's really going on?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Death

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Yeah, I get where all this is coming from. Been there, seen that, didn't buy the T-shirt. :roll:
Well I guess your one of those been there, done that, seen that, I get that, kind of person. Even though you've never been alive before.

We're only throwing ideas around.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Death

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote:We're only throwing ideas around.
Yeah, but let's stick to the sensible. There's no point in throwing ideas around that haven't even got reference to basic philosophical skills like logic, critical reasoning and the application of evidence. If you denigrate those, you've got nothing: nobody has.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Death

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:We're only throwing ideas around.
Yeah, but let's stick to the sensible. There's no point in throwing ideas around that haven't even got reference to basic philosophical skills like logic, critical reasoning and the application of evidence. If you denigrate those, you've got nothing: nobody has.
Nobody has got anything. It's got you.

There is nobody here except the idea.
Everything is going to pass away, every creature will die, the earth will be eaten by the sun, the sun will explode, one day all this is going to disappear and be no more. No one knows when or if it will reappear. But for now, there's just every idea imaginable being an energetic expression of oneness..E-motion( ENERGY IN MOTION)

Basic philosophical skills like logic, critical reasoning and the application of evidence has no ultimate relevance to ''what is''
There's an energetic appearance that wants to seek and apply logical reasonable sensibility to a reality that is without logic, without reason, and most importantly without answer. All seeking is in vain and leads nowhere. There are no answers to life, and the question to the answers we are looking for doesn't even arise, the question is imagined by that which has no real existence apart from the thought/idea.

If by chance an answer is found.. what then? what will change, can anything be any different than what is already right now? Nothing ever changes to consciousness/awareness/beingness/oneness.
Every change appears and disappears in THIS...this is it, it's as good as it's going to get...accept it.

What appears to be in the form of a human mind has no ultimate control over 'what is'

Human with no skill is just as valuable as human with skill because every appearance is a perfect expression of oneness.

In oneness, everything happens, to no one, in other words nothing ever happened.

And that's the beauty of this boundless freedom to be. It's time to relax into this and be home. No one is watching you. No one is judging you. No one is in charge. No one is going to save you. No one is going to love you. No one is going to remember you. Except as imagined. Quite simply there is no you. Except the artificially constructed CONCEPTION of you....< there's just this boundless freedom of being living itself.

What you imagine yourself to be is not a person with a body, the body is just a ROBOT carrying out ordinary automatic spontaneous functions...via the senses...it works on demand by what it is programmed to do, it takes words and language as actual reality, but are actually a fiction which is an energetical idea that there is a someone living separately in time and space...but it's an appearance appearing in the free boundlessness of nowhere.

There is a boundless freedom in knowing you are literally making up your own reality. Awakening to the illusion of reality is the only real skill worth having, because that's the universe waking up to itself...coming alive to it's being. No human being ever did that. They were the done. They are the universal instrument (body) that oneness, no one, uses to express itself...infinitely, in every expression imaginable.

But this is just my reality, one of an infinite realities. This T shirt fits me so I'm going to wear it. :D
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Death

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote:There is nobody here except the idea.
Neither plausible nor interesting. Descartes showed this was nonsense, at the very least.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Death

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:There is nobody here except the idea.
Neither plausible nor interesting. Descartes showed this was nonsense, at the very least.
Wow, what an amazingly riveting informative reply. All this time I've been saying there is nobody here, yet according to a dead guy, that was just nonsense. Great that makes perfect sense Descartes who ever you are.

Hmm, and yes, well of course it's not interesting, why would the assumed self want to face it's own nothingness, it wouldn't want that would it? that's way too boring, lets just keep deluding ourselves into believing there's someone here instead.

The Descartes guy said it's nonsense for the same reason I've given. Hmm, I wonder if this Descartes guy ever existed, who, what, and where is this person right now? .. except an idea. You may well say he's dead, even though you have no idea what death is, you just assume you know, you don't even know what life is, or who or what you are. You base all knowledge of yourself on words, symbols, images, ideas, thoughts, and senses, all of which are opaquely transient coming and going and cannot be pinned down or be a direct experience.

This life, what ever life is, is living and dying in the exact same moment. So who's this ''somebody'' that's supposed to exist? if you can't answer that properly, then you, just like the rest of us, are making yourself up out of nothing.

Do you not see the problem here?

If you cannot explain what this assumed someone is...then stop denying what I'm saying.

If life and death are in the same one eternal moment as a continuous process. Who and what is being born/dying...?

The truth is you have absolutely no idea, you base your assumptions on other peoples ideas, you do not think for yourself.

Thinking for yourself you will be at the central zero point of creation. And here you will see that everything in creation emanates from you and you alone. You will also discover there is no one in the centre, life has no single centre...and yet life appears to revolve around that centre-less centre.

That centre-less centre of your being is eternity. You are experiencing eternity right now today. To speak of one after physical death is to speak of the absolute. And to try to speak of the absolute is comparable to clapping with one hand.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Death

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote:And to try to speak of the absolute is comparable to clapping with one hand.
Don't care about "one hand clapping." Here's the sound of one bored guy leaving...
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Dontaskme
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Re: Death

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:And to try to speak of the absolute is comparable to clapping with one hand.
Don't care about "one hand clapping." Here's the sound of one bored guy leaving...
You cannot leave what you've never left. So your always right. :o
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Death

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Dontaskme wrote:
Immanuel Can wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:And to try to speak of the absolute is comparable to clapping with one hand.
Don't care about "one hand clapping." Here's the sound of one bored guy leaving...
You cannot leave what you've never left. So your always right. :o
More gibberish , from the Queen of Gibber.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Death

Post by Dontaskme »

Hobbes' Choice/Immanuel Can wrote:
More gibberish , from the Queen of Gibber.

Ignorance equals ''not seeing things as they really are'' and wisdom equals ''seeing things as they are''

So how are things seen by us? Generally speaking, totally made up.

We don't actually know or see things as they really are, we see things as we are. We distort immediate truth to fit with our own invented model of what we think it should be, all scientists and philosophers are doing same. Mixing the clarity of what is with the assumptive belief in what isn't, until one ends up with a rather unnecessary muddy soup of confusion that no one understands. And that is why we call it gibberish nonsense. The mind will always reject what it does not understand.

Fortunately, the mind doesn't need to understand anything, for it doesn't exist.
The fact is, we tend to superimpose our experiences and beliefs onto the present moment and prevent ourselves from seeing the truth of what's right before our eyes.. our very own projections.


Thanks for reading this Gibber... we're all doing it, and wonder why we fail to understand what we cannot understand.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Death

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Here's the sound of one bored guy leaving...
You leave the conversation because you are only interested in your self, even though you have absolutely no idea who or what that self is....and you cannot handle that truth.

The fact is, we tend to superimpose our experiences and beliefs onto the present moment and prevent ourselves from seeing the truth of what's right before our eyes.. our very own projections.

Our conception of self and the world (our perceptual reality) is so strongly influenced by our environment, culture, social group, family, friends, etc, etc, that we're continually bombarded with messages of how things are seen by others.

Thus, directly or indirectly, we are taught to rely on our individual and collective experience to ''know'' reality (when factually all we really know are the concepts and projections in our mind).

The thinking is that if we understand that things and events, feelings and thoughts, are merely constructions dependent on our mental concepts and inner narrative, they may exert less power over us.

By learning to become aware of and be suspicious of the ''truth'' of our assumptions and projections. This way we can start to glimpse how things are without our distorting narrative.

Remember, we use all kinds of labeling props in our narratives to maintain their ''reality,'' and the folks around us all contribute information supporting these narratives and descriptions of who we think we are, who everyone else is suppose to be, and how the world, purportedly, actually exists at large.
osgart
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Re: Death

Post by osgart »

death is an illusion. Even if is not i am not afraid. Just saddened that existence is an empty void. That empty void isnt reality to me based on what i experience and what i see. Nothing of the body says to me that is my life force. The life force uses the body and is bound to it.
Yet like the caterpillar becomes the butterfly totally unexpected. So to does the soul shed the body into higher existences. Which none can prove aint there.
Justintruth
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Re: Death

Post by Justintruth »

Randomness implies pointless, meaningless and accident, which is precisely what the materialist or evolutionist view of the world implies is the nature of the universe
This is incorrect. A materialist view is a type of objective view and requires certain symetries to exist. Imagine your visual field as a kind of pixelated tv screen. Now if it were radom it would look like snow. But if it is objective then over time there would be clusters of these particles that have a degree of stability. The stability can be defined in different ways. Those stabilities form the objects that are seen.

Furthermore not all objectiive viewpoints are material. Materiality requires further constraints on how the objects transform over time making the scene even less random.

Evolution is a materialist aka mechanist theory. It says only that genetic mutations are random. It is a subspecies of a kind of thermodynamic view of life itself. Life is not random but relies on increased randomness in the sun. But the cosmological view of entropy is complex. It does not appear that the system is in fact random relative to the micro states of the material particles.

But none of this implies meaninglessness - in fact it requires meaningfulness to define it.

There can be no question that being itsel is random for the sample set does not exist from which to draw the sample until being is. So until you for example have a material world with symetry enogh to define "states" and laws of dynamics that show the evolution of those states then you cannot look at those states and even determine whether they are random. In our universe it doesnt look like they are and hence we have galaxies and planets and life instead of a random cloud of moving particles.

But this strange idea of material randomness persists and is really a function of chaos. If you take some numbered ping pong balls and put them in a tank and blow them around tiny uncertainties in the initial possitions will be greatly amplified and the balls position mucro states will randomize. Thats how they select lottery winners. By analogy many naive materialists believe that the universe us random and evolutionists believe that murations are random.

But none of this bears on the "point" of the universe. Its just irrelevant. The "point" is existence itself which is wholly surperfluous. Random or notor somewhat it matters not. We are!

Few suspect how the biology of our survival instincts interact with this fact to produce the concsious states of mystic exctasy in a heightened realization of how non meaningless existence is.

It is just so discouraging intellwctually to see this debate where science and really this unclear nonscientific notion of randomness are conflated with meaninglessness and we have the whole stupid groundless religion vs science debate with so many people looking back in the rear view mirror at the last (Copernican) revolution instead of forward through the windshield to the next religio-scientific synthesis, revival, and reinterpretation of being.

Science through neurology will make possible great strides in religion fairly soon. Randomness and synchronnicity in the Jungian sense will have a big roll
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waechter418
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Re: Death

Post by waechter418 »

Dear James and Surreptitious

Thanks for your brilliant work!

Just read it, and would like to contribute to the subject (lamentably it got already trampled by the usual ghetto brawlers)

It appears under a slightly different perspective in chapter 2 of "Another view of consciousness"


Blessings to both of you !
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waechter418
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Re: Death

Post by waechter418 »

And to you too, Dontaskme!

your works have an luminous effect on me when striving through some of these dungeons of reasoning
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Harbal
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Re: Death

Post by Harbal »

It seems to me that once we die we become dead. Or, to put it another way, when we die we are no longer alive. Or, to put it yet another way, as soon as we stop being alive, we start being dead. The only difference between a dead thing and a non living thing is that a non living thing was never alive. When you look at a non living thing and then look at a dead thing, all you can say is, these things used to be different kinds of things but now they are the same kind of thing in as much as neither of them is alive.
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