Momentary question

So what's really going on?

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Bernard
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Re: Momentary question

Post by Bernard »

reasonvemotion wrote:I think perhaps Bernard your thoughts are along these lines, I may be wrong. Wulff (1997) summarizes Jung’s attitude toward life "as one of openness, especially to the non rational and the mysterious, to what lies beyond the logic of the philosopher and the instruments of the scientist. It is a recognition of the infinity that stretches far beyond our understanding, of the powers that lie outside our comprehension and control. It is, then, also an attitude of humility and of awe".

I would almost liken it to the vitality of nature, the earth, the sky and beyond.

What say you?
Yes, infinity is alive, vital!
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Bernard
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Re: Momentary question

Post by Bernard »

chaz wyman wrote:
Bernard wrote:[quote="chaz wyman"

You have assumed that your life is infinite.
How can you ask me to 'prove', and yet deny me the tool of reason?
Think about it!
You can use reason, no on has denied you that. Prove that I assume that life is infinite, back it up!
Okay - even without reason, but by simply repeating your words back to you.
You said...

1) An argument I would give about the non existence of the past is that what is here right now is infinite and infinity can't be added to by an entityt such as the past.

2) No, infinity is not beyond my experience. It IS my experience. This not a rational statement but who cares about that! In the end rationality is another way of kidding ourselves.

3) Me in the womb, me in the seconds before my death and me typing... these are just varieties of me, any one of which I can access right now!

4) Every experience of our life is stored in us.

5) I don't see why the fuck its so unreasonable to say that all our experiences are stored within us.


Not only is our life infinite, but our experiences can be recalled infinitely.
I think when I said "You have assumed that your life is infinite." is was a pretty fair summation.
I do not think that you have cause to warrant these assertions.[/quote]
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Bernard
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Re: Momentary question

Post by Bernard »

No, my life is only a temporary experience of infinity. One can't ever assume that one's life is infinite, and I haven't done that. I'm not an idiot. You're traps are so friggin' obvious..
chaz wyman
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Re: Momentary question

Post by chaz wyman »

Bernard wrote:No, my life is only a temporary experience of infinity. One can't ever assume that one's life is infinite, and I haven't done that. I'm not an idiot. You're traps are so friggin' obvious..
I'm not laying any traps. I don't know why you are so tetchy.
You still have not addressed the central problem. As your life is temporary, you cannot experience infinity.
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Bernard
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Re: Momentary question

Post by Bernard »

Tetchy tetchy me says that finite and infinite are the two primary symbiotic realms of existence. You can't have the experience of one without the experience of the other.
chaz wyman
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Re: Momentary question

Post by chaz wyman »

Bernard wrote:Tetchy tetchy me says that finite and infinite are the two primary symbiotic realms of existence. You can't have the experience of one without the experience of the other.
Yes. This is not unusual. You can experience life, but you cannot experience death.
You can experience heat, but cold is the absence of heat, so is not experienced as such.
You can experience your life, but not another's life. You can experience the present, but not the past.
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Notvacka
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Re: Momentary question

Post by Notvacka »

Bernard wrote:Tetchy tetchy me says that finite and infinite are the two primary symbiotic realms of existence. You can't have the experience of one without the experience of the other.
How are finite and infinite "symbiotic"?
In what way are they "realms"?
How do you experience infinity? Experiencing a finite slice of something infinite is not experiencing infinity.

And the most important question about this supposed infinity of yours: it's an infinity of what?

Seems to me that infinity is an abstraction that we can't really grasp. And content matters. Quality over quantity, you know. 8)

The never ending series of whole numbers for instance: 1,2,3,4,5... is infinite. If you take away every odd number, you get half as many numbers; 2,4,6,8... But the series is still infinite! Yes, this simple example shows that you can have half an infinity. How much is half an infinity? Of course, by definition, half an infinity is an infinity too. But it's also true that the infinite series of whole numbers will always contain twice the numbers of the equally infinite series containing only even numbers.

What does this mean in practice? We don't know. It's yet another example of the limits of our actual knowledge. Let's see:

1,2,3,4,5... The three dots represents the fact that you can always add another number. That's infinity for you in theory.
2,4,6,8... The series is missing something. It's not as complete as the previous series. It has less flavour. It's missing every odd number. But you can always add another number. That's infinity in theory.

You can always add another number. In in theory, that is. But in practice? The only way to experience the simple infinity of numbers would be to keep counting. Yes, keep on counting. Imagine the boredom. The boredom! Besides, how would you know that you were actually experiencing infinity? How would you know that there would be no end? You would be experienceing an ever larger, but always finite, slice of the infinite...
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Bernard
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Re: Momentary question

Post by Bernard »

Notvacka wrote:
Bernard wrote:Tetchy tetchy me says that finite and infinite are the two primary symbiotic realms of existence. You can't have the experience of one without the experience of the other.
How are finite and infinite "symbiotic"?

If you could see that existence is only composed of living things, and that there is no end or beginning to living things, you would be half way to seeing how the finite and the infinite are symbiotic...

In what way are they "realms"?

Its a figure of speech. They are opposites.

How do you experience infinity? Experiencing a finite slice of something infinite is not experiencing infinity.

It can be. Its a matter of seeing the forest whilst seeing the trees as well.I experience infinity by feeling it with all my unified senses.

And the most important question about this supposed infinity of yours: it's an infinity of what?

Its not my infinity at all, and its not supposed: its very real, very alive. Its very familiar as well. The most familiar thing of all. Very mild as well. Its not an infinity of what, its just infinity. Don't break it down with your mind and she'll be apples.


Seems to me that infinity is an abstraction that we can't really grasp. And content matters. Quality over quantity, you know.

But the thing is that we ourselves are abstractions that can't really be grasped, so its just a matter of acknowledging our own essence and its source.

The never ending series of whole numbers for instance: 1,2,3,4,5... is infinite. If you take away every odd number, you get half as many numbers; 2,4,6,8... But the series is still infinite! Yes, this simple example shows that you can have half an infinity. How much is half an infinity? Of course, by definition, half an infinity is an infinity too. But it's also true that the infinite series of whole numbers will always contain twice the numbers of the equally infinite series containing only even numbers.

What does this mean in practice? We don't know. It's yet another example of the limits of our actual knowledge. Let's see:

1,2,3,4,5... The three dots represents the fact that you can always add another number. That's infinity for you in theory.
2,4,6,8... The series is missing something. It's not as complete as the previous series. It has less flavour. It's missing every odd number. But you can always add another number. That's infinity in theory.

You can always add another number. In in theory, that is. But in practice? The only way to experience the simple infinity of numbers would be to keep counting. Yes, keep on counting. Imagine the boredom. The boredom! Besides, how would you know that you were actually experiencing infinity? How would you know that there would be no end? You would be experienceing an ever larger, but always finite, slice of the infinite...



This is what we do to assure our separateness from infinity: go about as if we can confine, expand, add to or breakup infinity. Its just mental gymnastics. We have been doing this from the word go. Its important to do this to an extent, otherwise there is nothing else to do but surrender to our true nature, which is infinite... very impractical most of the time. The trouble is we go too far in this denial of our source and things become super -practical at the cost of a practice that is actually true to us rather than a default ring-in. The practice is to acknowledge infinity as our primary essense - and get on with life!. Very simple.
chaz wyman
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Re: Momentary question

Post by chaz wyman »

Bernard wrote:
Notvacka wrote:
Bernard wrote:Tetchy tetchy me says that finite and infinite are the two primary symbiotic realms of existence. You can't have the experience of one without the experience of the other.
How are finite and infinite "symbiotic"?

If you could see that existence is only composed of living things, and that there is no end or beginning to living things, you would be half way to seeing how the finite and the infinite are symbiotic...

In what way are they "realms"?

Its a figure of speech. They are opposites.

I think you can argue this. The opposite of infinity is nothingness - both are impossible.
~Finite is just a word to say that things are not infinite; that they are measurable.


How do you experience infinity? Experiencing a finite slice of something infinite is not experiencing infinity.

It can be. Its a matter of seeing the forest whilst seeing the trees as well.I experience infinity by feeling it with all my unified senses.

All forests are finite, as is your perception of them,


And the most important question about this supposed infinity of yours: it's an infinity of what?

Its not my infinity at all, and its not supposed: its very real, very alive. Its very familiar as well. The most familiar thing of all. Very mild as well. Its not an infinity of what, its just infinity. Don't break it down with your mind and she'll be apples.


Seems to me that infinity is an abstraction that we can't really grasp. And content matters. Quality over quantity, you know.

But the thing is that we ourselves are abstractions that can't really be grasped, so its just a matter of acknowledging our own essence and its source.

The never ending series of whole numbers for instance: 1,2,3,4,5... is infinite. If you take away every odd number, you get half as many numbers; 2,4,6,8... But the series is still infinite! Yes, this simple example shows that you can have half an infinity. How much is half an infinity? Of course, by definition, half an infinity is an infinity too. But it's also true that the infinite series of whole numbers will always contain twice the numbers of the equally infinite series containing only even numbers.

What does this mean in practice? We don't know. It's yet another example of the limits of our actual knowledge. Let's see:

1,2,3,4,5... The three dots represents the fact that you can always add another number. That's infinity for you in theory.
2,4,6,8... The series is missing something. It's not as complete as the previous series. It has less flavour. It's missing every odd number. But you can always add another number. That's infinity in theory.

You can always add another number. In in theory, that is. But in practice? The only way to experience the simple infinity of numbers would be to keep counting. Yes, keep on counting. Imagine the boredom. The boredom! Besides, how would you know that you were actually experiencing infinity? How would you know that there would be no end? You would be experienceing an ever larger, but always finite, slice of the infinite...



This is what we do to assure our separateness from infinity: go about as if we can confine, expand, add to or breakup infinity. Its just mental gymnastics. We have been doing this from the word go. Its important to do this to an extent, otherwise there is nothing else to do but surrender to our true nature, which is infinite... very impractical most of the time. The trouble is we go too far in this denial of our source and things become super -practical at the cost of a practice that is actually true to us rather than a default ring-in. The practice is to acknowledge infinity as our primary essense - and get on with life!. Very simple.
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Bernard
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Re: Momentary question

Post by Bernard »


All forests are finite, as is your perception of them,


Are you sure you really don't see what I mean by traps? My use of the term forests was metaphorical, but that said; are forests or trees really finite? If I say infinity is the source of the finite and that the finite is the source of the infinite would that be clear as mud? Would that help any? :twisted:
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Bernard
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Re: Momentary question

Post by Bernard »

And I'll thank you very much to speak for your own perception rather than mine.
chaz wyman
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Re: Momentary question

Post by chaz wyman »

Bernard wrote:
All forests are finite, as is your perception of them,


Are you sure you really don't see what I mean by traps? My use of the term forests was metaphorical, but that said; are forests or trees really finite? If I say infinity is the source of the finite and that the finite is the source of the infinite would that be clear as mud? Would that help any? :twisted:
Yes it was a good analogy, but I don't think you thought it through.
Just as you cannot perceive the whole forest, you are unable to perceive infinity, simply enough because, as you say, your life is finite. For al you know reality ends with your life.
chaz wyman
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Re: Momentary question

Post by chaz wyman »

Bernard wrote:And I'll thank you very much to speak for your own perception rather than mine.
It's not a question of my perception. Its a matter of definition.
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Bernard
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Re: Momentary question

Post by Bernard »

Not by necessity a definition I all the time buy in to.

What have you been sculpting lately anyway Chaz? C'mon, empty ya packets!
chaz wyman
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Re: Momentary question

Post by chaz wyman »

Bernard wrote:Not by necessity a definition I all the time buy in to.

What have you been sculpting lately anyway Chaz? C'mon, empty ya packets!
I've got s short series of smaller sculptures based on the gods of Olympus, but I've not put them online yet.
I also did a medium sized bust of Wagner.
But since September I've been learning how do do stained glass, which I am finding less rewarding than sculpture. I hope to move out the stained glass operation from my workshop and get back to sculpture soon!
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